Ragnaros changes

Edit: So, Molten core still sucks. The ability’s cooldowns are way too long, the cooldown of MC istelf is too long and it takes way to long to get decent range. When you activate it, you can barely do anything unless the emenies are already around you (in which case you’ll probably die) And the stun at the end is reallt not necessary.

Going to start by pointing that one out before someone complains about nerfs.

  • Explosive Rune [Molten Core E]
    • Now deals 75% reduced damage to Structures.

That ability currently deals ZERO damage to structures. So this is a net buff. It is NOT a 75% nerf.

Most of Rag’s changes are to Molten core. Which is a super situational trait, so it didn’t give you much to make up for how often it had no value.

  • Living Meteor [W]
    • Damage increased from 104 to 120.

Good since it’s a pretty bad damage dealing ability and W build sucks. Not sure it’s enough to make it shine though. A mage build on a bruiser is kind of counterproductive since ot forces your tank to be the only frontline with 4 backliners. (To be fair, no matter the build Rag usually needs assistance often)

  • Molten Core [D]
    • Cooldown increased from 120 to 180 seconds.
    • Health increased from 3996 to 5000.
    • Duration increased from 18 to 23 seconds.
    • Ragnaros is now Stunned for 1 second upon exiting.

I know they inreased the cooldown because the new “Heroic difficulty” at 20 reduces it by 100 seconds. But now you’re being punished for not picking that heroic which sucks.

Health increase. Sorely needed. I keep telling everyone I play with to attack Rag’s molten core form instead of running away. Because you can burn it REALLY fast. Then he’s screwed. I guess people wised up to that so they made it beefier.

They buffed the duration, which is nice. Butthe stun is really unecessary. Ragnaroe reappears in the exact spot he was when he activated it. So unless there’s someone to peel for him, if enemies are near, he’s dead when it ends since they know exactly where he’ll be. There’s really no need for a self stun.

  • Meteor Swing [Molten Core Q]
    • Damage increased from 161 to 250.
    • No longer deals increased damage to Minions.
    • Cooldown increased from 6 seconds to 9 seconds.
    • Now also knocks enemies back.

Can’t complain about a damage increase. But this was already his longest cooldown ability. I’m sure it’s due to the added knockback. But I’m not sure I want to knock my enemies away from my allies right as I stun them. And depending on the distance, it might require camera adjustment each time to target them with your other abilities. It’s now a mainly peel tool, but an AoE stun already worked as peel. I wonder why they added that knockback.

  • Meteor Shower [Molten Core W]
    • Damage increased from 151 to 200.
    • Cooldown increased from 2.5 to 6 seconds.
    • Area of effect increased by 66%.
    • Delay between hits significantly increased.
    • No longer deals increased damage to Minions.
    • Slow increased from 25% to 35%.
    • Range reduced from 35 to 20, but now it extends up to 35 over time.
    • Now deals 75% reduced damage to Structures.

So the damage is increased, and the AoE is 66% larger. This wasn’t the easiest ability to land if you didn’t have plenty of practice. But the cooldown is almost double now, and the added delay between hits means it’s easier to dodge. The slow is increased though, which makes you more useful to your team when using it. The 75% reduced damage to structures though really sucks. The structure damage this dealt was the best part about it. You could contribute Core damage from a safe position.

  • Level 1
    • Engulfing Flame
      • Damage bonus reduced from 75% to 50%.

I always figured this might happen. I don’t think our janitors understand that the reason we pick that talent so much is not because it’s really good, but because the other options have very low value.. I don’t think the talent’s pick rate is going to change one bit. Rag is a pretty weak hero overall. So I don’t see many nerfs being warranted.

  • Level 10
    • Sulfuras Smash
      • NEW MYTHIC QUEST: Hit 8 enemy Heroes with the center of Sulfuras Smash. Mythic Reward: Sulfuras Smash gains an extra charge.

On paper this seems like all upside. A second charge is a REALLY good reward. The only problem is that this will encourage players to spam an ability that should be used at key moments, usually as a follow up.

Level 20

  • Lava Surge
    • No longer reduces the cooldown of Lava Wave by 30 seconds.
    • Now also gives +200% Movement Speed to allied Minions and Mercenaries in its path.

The usefulness of LAva wave can tend to get worse late game. Especially if you don’t already have lane advantage. This could help with that. 200% is a pretty big boost, so you won’t have to wait 5 years for the enemy to be threatened by your ability after casting it. They’ll need to respond to it faster.

  • Heroic Difficulty
    • NEW FUNCTIONALITY: Decrease the cooldown of Molten Core by 110 seconds when used on a dead Fort or Keep. In addition, the starting range of abilities in Molten Core are increased by 100% and will continue to grow.

So, you get a cooldown reduction that offsets the longer cooldown nerf. But only if used on a dead structure. So if your allies refuse to push structures, which is often the case. This part of the text on the ability does not exist. And even if you’ve taken down structures, you won’t always be fighting on the lane where that structure is, so again that text won’t exist. Can’t complain about a range increase though.

The overall range increase on Molten core is nice, as it was pretty easy to get ouf ot its AoE. But I wonder if it’ll feel like Hammer’s graduating range where it often happens too slowly.

Thoughts?

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I thought this same thing. There’s no reason why, unless they really want to emphasize their intended outcome of using Molten Core.

Maybe you’re suppose to save it for right before Molten Core expires to give you a “chance to get away”? (Even though the self-stun looks like they don’t want that.)

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E’s damage with the talent goes from 180 to 180. So they just moved more of its power out of the talent to the baseline. So his E build is the exact same as before.

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I would have liked it to get an actual buff so it would be worth burning your only (kind of bad) escape tool.

You could use this to knock somebody to the side further into your towers/another keep. Also makes his ability to prevent people from doing the “stand there and kill him” thing better. You can use this with a DK or protector attacking to isolate it from its teammates so you can get more damage on them as well. I think its a buff in some situations and a nerf in others.

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I had the same immediate thought on molten core Q but the more I thought about it, the more being able to swat away all the minions and camps and zerg waves off of you will dramatically increase your time in bolten core.

Plus, you can still combo with it. The knock back will make it harder but also, now you can push someone along the path of meteor storm to garuntee atleast 1 more hit. Like how guldan can do this with horrify and corruption.

I really doubt this will be a pervasive issue. I think your letting a couple sour games dominate your entire experience with the hero.

Besides, if you think its not gonna work in any given game, dont take the talent. Submerge is still really good.

I guess it depends how the knockback trajectory happens.

But on Heroic Difficulty. I’m pretty sure they buffed it because they realized that it was situational. But then they added a situational buff on it. (Like DW’s reset on structure destruction.)

It’s not far fetched that if you’ve destroyed a fort, your next fight won’t happen near that fort. Either you’re pushing another one, or contesting an objective that spawned in another location.

Tried it on ptr. Its like yrels knockback.

(Phone auto correct is mean :c)

Yeah, tried the new molten core and I really don’t feel the buffed damage makes up for the cooldown nerf. You barely get to use your abilities. The extra duration doesn’t help it at all.

I just tried him in an AI match, and I looked for the 1 second stun after Molten Core, but didn’t notice it.

FRESH INSECT

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Here’s some footage of Lava surge and Molten core from PTR. Not impressed by Molten core.

Lava Surge. It doesn’t actually speed up the minion animations, it just kind of pushes them.

Molten Core range on Volskaya. It takes a while before you can target the objective area. In this case it feels worse than before in some cases..

Molten Core during Teamfight. I always tell people to just attack Rag in MC and melt it because it really doesn’t last long when hit. I’m really not feeling the HP buff. The only difference compared to before is that since your cooldowns are significantly longer, you get less value when focused because you don’t get to use the abilities as often. Also, the 1 second stun doesn’t happen.

Mostly, the longer cooldowns really suck.

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Hello! Been a minute.

I no longer play as often as I used to. However, i still wanted to give my two cents on these changes.

I believe that this isnt a great direction to take Ragnaros. I was actually considering posting here about a proposed pinnacle for Rag but i guess they beat me to it lmao!

I think that MC as an ability does not strike the fear it should for a raid boss character, so I agree on the overall buff in exchange for longer CD. However, I also think that the pinnacle should have been tied to the trait itself. I think that Rag should be a character gathering power while doing Rag things like soaking and dishing out fat burst, working his way to a pinnacle that does increase the CD of MC. However, it should obviously give him a massive power spike to be relevant late game instead of being largely irrelevant if focused down like some have pointed out. Perhaps armor or bigger abilities. Yk something more grandiose.

The pinnacle on SS is cool but it kinda misses the point of the ultimate. Its a joke ive seen someone say that it only means you miss twice as often, whick kind of relates to my point that a pinnacle on this ult doesnt address what its best at: starting fights or sniping heroes.

Overall however there are changes to things that didnt need or warrent changes on a pretty stable, if weak, hero. You dont want another thrall situation after all! I disagree with the philosophy that change for the sake of change is good hero design.

I wrote this on my phone so I apologize for the lackluster formatting lol.

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Hey, when I read the patch notes I was hoping that would bring you around. Glad you haven’t stopped playing :slight_smile:

The quest on Smash is kind of pointless because 8 center hits is going to take forever. The graduading range feels bad because you start off further than before, so you can hit less target. And the enemies aren’t going to sit around until you get your full range.

The fact that they want to add a stun at the end means they feel it’s more powerful than before. Which worries me.

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IMO I think Ragnaros needed some slight MC buffs, some changes to his Q build, and maybe some baseline number tweaking so he can be competitive with other toptier bruisers. That’s about it. He has an excellent ability kit with great talent versatility that was just slightly underperforming.

But I do think most of the changes on the PTR will give Ragnaros a lot of options. Lava Surge is great - I lament how Lava Wave doesn’t provide enough map pressure to justify sending a guy back to earn that 5v4 the ability advertises. Now, Surge will FORCE a team to respond to catapults/siege giants/other mercs whenever an objective rolls around. Very cool for checkmate scenarios.

Flames of Sulfuron, F tier talent, might rise quickly to a solid B if the 1s cooldown between charges stays. Multi-chaining two Smashes right after another, especially if given a combo to capitalize on clumped targets, is game winning. The big pain with that talent is that it’s tied to a skillshot ultimate ability, that will rarely lead or initiate fights and acts rather as a finisher/follow up piece to an easy kill. The CC it had was irrelevant. But two charges? You can choose to lead one and do another; or have it blown on two separate targets. Decisions, decisions!

I’m sure the 2x Smash charge + Flames of Sulfuron is also the reason why the Janitor introduced the knockback to Rag’s Q. I’m going off the words of @waterlong and assume it functions exactly like Yrel W - which is great! A quick, violent shove with a stun is easy enough to line yourself up for a kill. But shoving everything else aside will make it impossible to use Molten Swing to chain into 2/3/4 target Smashes. A single target is plenty good, and having a second smash can make up that deficit. Anyhow; knocking people back is cool for making Molten Core last a bit longer from oncomers. I also think that will make it a substantially better tool at nullifying a hard engage. Downside is obvious - you, or your team for that matter, cannot follow through with the Qs that easily.

No strong opinions on the W and E changes. In theory, this should boost M.C. DPS +50% if he can splash it on many different enemies in different areas. It is strictly worse IF you were able to catch multiple enemies on the same pixel because of how strong the instant damage was at flattening a team. We shall see how it performs.

I severely dislike the cooldown nerf. Make it 150 and I’ll be fine with that. I for one use Molten Core very frequently and the 2 minute cooldown was quite natural in attuning to objective timers. Three minutes is quite brutal. But there are many games where few cores are cast, and a longer CD won’t change anything. It’ll hurt bad when it matters, and other times it won’t matter at all.

I do not like that the Core starts out at 20 range. I have a gut feeling that half or 25% of the duration will be wasted while waiting for the range to graduate. Which invalidates the supposed buff of buffing the duration baseline.

Mixed feelings on the Heroic Difficulty change. The +25% damage will be missed, and being punished when using it defensively on a standing Keep will suck a lot. I do think aggressive Cores/Cores cast on enemy side Forts are better than defensive Cores, so it plays into that, but it’s not nice to have a one-last-defense be nerfed. You could circumvent this problem by Molten Coring a different lane’s destroyed Keep which can be a viable work around.

The range increase, however! Very cool. A lot of objectives, those near the middle of the map, fall narrowly out of the 35 range. Just a smidge increase to 40 is a HUGE deal, and it even expands out even further. Very excited to manipulate the game more with that change. It’ll be a bit more of a situational talent rather than an all-rounder performance boost.

I think modern Ragnaros is going to be very interesting. The systems of Molten Core is so interweaved that it’s hard to explore it fully. For those who have mastered the Molten Core, I think it will be a nerf. But there will be more variety and skill expression at hand, which introduces new situations that Ragnaros can excel at, and that is worthwhile to see.

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It is absolutely a massive upside. Going from 1 >> 2 charges is a big deal for abilities. It’s actually more like 1 >> 2.5 charges due to the way that you may use or not use at all the secondary charge at all, all the while the third charge is cooling down.

I completely disagree. Not enough players realize just how dangerous Ragnaros is at killing a target of his choice by leading his ultimate first. You don’t need a slow, or stun, or anything. Just the act of using it without follow-up shocks a lot of opponents and it leads to a kill thereafter. The quest is going to incentivize this advanced tactic.

Some people may claim that 8 hits is absurd. I don’t think so, an attentive Ragnaros can probably score that naturally by level 17 or 20. The big question is - if you have 7/8 stacks and land the 8th hit, do you get the next charge immediately ready to go? Without cooldown? Because this does happen with other lesser abilities and talents of less importance. So you actually only need 7 hits for it to matter.

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Why? Do both charges share the same cooldown (like junkrat Q)?

No, more akin to Johanna’s talent that gives her a second charge on blind. Such charge based abilities that fully refill on recharge is explicit in their descriptions.

Picture this scenario. Ragnaros goes in for a kill on Nazeebo. He uses just one of his two Smashes on him. 45 seconds pass and Ragnaros joins his team for a fight somewhere else and uses his second Smash. But the fight is still going! He only needs to wait 15 seconds before he recharges his 1st Smash, which ends up being his third Smash in that timeframe. This is why I say it’s “2.5” because you are always progressing to something positive as time passes, in this case the 3rd Smash.

There can also be a scenario that Ragnaros uses both charges immediately and does not fight Heroes for the next 2 minutes. At that point he’ll recharge both.

In practice, going from 1 charge to 2 charges is a stupendous powerup. It’s less pronounced from 2 to 3, but always welcomed.

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Completely disagree. Q is just an empowered attack and the healing it provides is nowhere near good enough to keep you alive, or even sustained againt another bruiser in lane.

W is one of the worse damage ability in the game, and only exists to emulate WoW.

And E is at odds with itself. It doesn’t last long enough to be a decent escape tool, but if it lasts too long the damage becomes unreliable. That’s why he’s a weak hero.

AA builds are generally bad on meleee characters. Q build is bad for Rag because you can’t stay engaged long enough to get good value out of it, and you have no way to stick to your targets.

W build is terrible as the damage output is really bad, and is trying to turn a melee hero into a bad mage, forcing your tank to need to peel for one more person as it makes you stay away from the frontline even more.

E build isn’t that great, but it’s less bad than the other two, so that’s what we pick.

I’m really not sure how fast you can expect to finish his mythic quest. 8 center hits on his ult won’t be quick.

i’ve seen people do that a lot. And what usually hapens is the target walks away, and Rag can’t catch them to kill secure. Ppl only get the kill when opponents insist on still fighting at low health.

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I can see that. Just kind of sitting there not doing anything for a while, when you cant auto attack or move spells should be spammy just for play experience reasons

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