Let's talk about Tyrande!

Hello everyone !

I posted the following message on Reddit two weeks ago but since I didn’t have a lot of answers, I try to post it on the official forum today. All I want is to have an interesting debate with a lot of people :wink: ! Here is the original message :

This is my very first message. I’m not someone who usually write on forums or socials medias but I’ve decided to make a post today to speak with you about Tyrande and share my point of view about my favorite character . I love Tyrande. I love her since Warcraft 3 and when I started Heroes, I was so excited to be able to play her again in a new video game. She was the first hero that I bought and since the begining she is my main (level 138, 1000+ games played).

This post is gonna be long but I have a lot to say. I’m waiting to see your answers. Hopefully, we will be able to talk together in a pleasant and intelligent atmosphere (English is not my mother tongue so forgive my mistakes, be kind !). If I write it today it’s because I have a big problem with her recent rework and the direction taken by Blizzard for her.

So, who is Tyrande ?

  • In Warcraft 3 , she is a ranged agility hero who rely on strong auto-attacks boosted by Searing Arrows and Trueshot Aura. She has one of the most strongest ability in the game, Starfall, which allow her to do a lot of magical damages. She has a “support vibe” with the utility she can provide to her army : vision with the owl and damage boost to all ranged units with Trueshot Aura.
  • In the lore , she is at the same time the general of the night elf sentinels, the high priestess of the goddess Elune, the leader of the Sisterhood of Elune and the co-ruler of the Night-Elves.
  • In Heroes of the Storm , she is classified as a ranged support. Through the reworks, she had differents evolutions :
  1. Tyrande during alpha and Tyrande 1.0 (2014 – 2015) : She is an aggressive off-support who can’t solo heal. She deals decent damages (with Starfall, an auto-attack build and the owl build), provide a lot of utility and some heal. Shadowstalk doesn’t heal but cloak all her team and reveal ennemies heroes (move speed to allies instead of revealing ennemies heroes during the alpha).
  2. Tyrande 2.0 (2015 – 2017) : She is close to the previous version. She is still an aggressive off-support who can deals good damages and bring utility but now she has better heals and she can solo heal in some aggressives compositions with a lot of cc and burst. Shadowstlalk now heal allies. Developer Comments : “We think that it’s important that Tyrande has the capability to be a viable solo healer, as she might be the only Support on your team in Quick Match. Shadowstalk is generally an under-picked Heroic, so we decided to focus it more toward healing so that it can become a “support” option. Tyrande still brings less healing than some of our other Supports due to the rest of her kit, but we hope that the Shadowstalk change will bring her closer to what players expect when fulfilling the primary Support role.” (https://heroesofthestorm.com/en-us/blog/19893628/#Tyrande). At this time, all the supports heroes were put in the same category in QM, so it was possible to have Tyrande or Tassadar as solo support vs a true support in the ennemy team.
  3. Tyrande 3.0 (2017-2018) : That rework refreshed her talent tree (which became old and dusty). She is still an aggressive off-support. Before this rework, Blizzard created a new category for QM (sustain heroes) and now heroes like Tyrande or Tassadar face another sustain hero during QM matchs instead of a true support. Since Blizzard still consider Tyrande as an aggressive off-support, they now can remove the option for her to be a main support and they rework her as a true hybrid between assassin and support. She can deals a lot of damages, she still provide a lot of utility and she can assist the main support by bringing some heals. Shadowstalk is now an ability which only work on Tyrande and give her attack and move speed.
  4. Tyrande 4.0 (2018-) : Blizzard decide to turn Tyrande into a true main support. She lost a lot of her damages but got a lot of healing potential instead. The basics of her previous version are still here but the numbers are changed and some talents are displaced. She still bring a lot of utility and she still has an aggressive gameplay but she is not an off-support anymore.

This little historic of Tyrande was a bit long but necessary for me to explain why I disagree with the direction taken by Blizzard for her. I don’t like what Tyrande became, I don’t like her as a solo healer. To play healer instead of a damage hero is not the problem for me. I’m not a heavy healer player but I don’t have anything against it. Alexstrasza is one of my favorite hero in the game and she is a healer. If they had changed her into an assasin, I would be dissapointed as well .

The problem is the core of the character and the perception of it. I don’t want Tyrande as a healer because I don’t consider the character like that. I never saw Tyrande as a healer. In Warcraft 3, she does a lot damage and bring some utility to her army. In the lore, she is at the same time the general of the night elf sentinels and the high priestess of the goddess Elune, which means she is a strong, wild warrior and a priestress with some healing gifts . During 4 years of Heroes of the Storm, she was an aggressive off-support , who dealt a lot of damages , brought utility and heals . When Blizzard gave her the possibility to become more of a main healer, it was optional only . At this time, she still had the possibility to choose to increase her damage or increase her healing.

“While a lot of players loved her hybrid Support/Assassin playstyle, she was having a hard time finding a solid spot in the meta. Since her rework last year, we have read a lot of feedback saying that our support players really missed playing her as a healer. When starting her most recent rework, we took the opportunity to shift her role and rebuilt her talent tree and kit around embracing that.” Blizz_Daybringer (Live Game Designer) (https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/9gzoe0/game_design_balance_ama_with_heroes_developers/)

So the problem was her poor pickrate/winrate in pro league ? Of course she has better winrate now but I feel like the character is denatured a little bit. The old Tyrande was fine, she just needed some little buffs (an increased range for example) to shine.

I personnaly thing that the core of the character is to be an hybrid between assassin and support, to be at the same time the general of the night elf sentinels and the high priestess of the goddess Elune. I was very happy with the rework last year. For me, it was the true representation of the character. Of course she is very strong now as a solo support, I don’t deny it, her winrate has increased and she is played a lot in pro games. But for me it’s not a question of winrate or pickrate but a question of what is the nature , the core and the personnality of the character. I feel like she is not in the right place now. To be a solo healer doesn’t fit the core and the nature of the character. For me it’s not a problem of power, winrate or pickrate in HGC but a problem of design. Tyrande is actually designed as a solo healer which, I think, doesn’t fit the initial character.

I feel like the new rework distorts the character. The main point of Heroes is the possibility to play the iconic heroes and unities from the Blizzard universes in a MOBA (and this is strengh of Heroes compared to the others games). The thing is now when I play Tyrande, I don’t have the impression to play the “true” Tyrande, to play that iconic character from Warcraft. I don’t think she is actually well represented in Hots.

During Blizzcon, Blizzard revealed the upcoming new roles system . I’m both happy and sad about it. Happy because I wanted it since a long time and it was necessary. As a Tyrande main, I was even more happy because the off-support role is often misunderstood by players (and I personnaly think this role is very interesting). But I’m also sad. Because of the recent rework of Tyrande, she is now classified as a Healer. I waited so long for the new roles and when it finally come out, I feel like Tyrande is not classified in her true role. She should be classified as a Support , not a healer, along with Tassadar, Abathur, Zarya…

I don’t mind the idea to have Tyrande as main healer, but only if it is optional (because the nature of the character is not to be a healer for me). It would have been easy to give her the possibility to be a main healer while letting her to be an hybrid : give her talents which increase her heals but passively reduce her damages, put damages and heals talents at the same tier… I think it was possible to save her hybrid identity while allowing her the possibility to be a main healer through some talents. I also think it would have been cool to emphazise on utility of Light of Elune more than heal. Celestial Attunement , Kaldorei Resistance and Quickening Blessing are the perfects examples : these talents don’t increase the healing potential of Light of Elune but add utility to it. More talents like this would have been very interesting I think (like the old talent Shroud) to fit the new Support role. There a lot of possiblities with Light of Elune in term of utility, but also with the others abilities/talents : The owl, for example, is a tool which give vision, we could imagine talents which increase this to emphasize the scouting huntress gameplay (like in Warcraft 3). We also can imagine a talent that give the possibility to hit allies heroes with the owl to give them a benediction.

She could totally fit into the new Support category and be an hybrid between an assassin and a support which give A LOT of utility to her team (and she could fit into a lot of draft like this I think) while being able to do good damages. The others Support heroes are kind of hybrid too : Medivh and Abathur are hybrids assassin/support and they work well. They have their place in the game. Tyrande can find her place as a support (not a healer) too.

I’m realistic so I’m not asking for a new rework because I know it won’t happen now (and I must say it would be a very bad move from Blizzard to rework again a hero few months only after the last rework). Maybe one day she will regain her hybrid identity, maybe not. If people are happy with the new rework, it’s cool. I just want to open the debate and show a different opinion.

For now, I wish that the actual Tyrande would be a little more flexible . Tyrande 2.0 was an off-support with the possibility to solo heal in some situationals compositions and with the right talents for it. It would be cool to have Tyrande 4.0 as a healer but with the possibility to play more like a damage off-support in some situationals compositions (double heal). It would be a good first step for me.

A little suggestion : since Everlasting Light (level 7) is the lowest winrate talent and the least picked of the tier, why don’t replace it by a damage talent, or add a new talent at this level (maybe give her back Searing Arrow) ? So with the damages talents of the level 4, this new talent level 7, Starfall, the damages talents level 16 and eventually the level 13 and 20, she would be able to make a “damage” build while remaining a healer. In the past, some healers had the possibility to make a damage build (the old Moonfire build on Malfurion for example) which was situational (in double heal compostion). Blizzard removed damages and waveclear on the supports when they wanted to stop the double support meta last year. But since Tyrande is meant to be the most aggressive healer (and since her waveclear is poor), it won’t break anything I think.

Finally, I’m confused. As I said, I consider the character to be an aggressive off-support (I rely my vision on what she is on Warcraft, her lore and and what she was for 4 years in Hots) but she is not like this anymore. So what is the vision of Blizzard ? How they consider her ? What are the future plans for her ? Will she regain her hybrid identity one day ? And how the player consider her ?

10 Likes

I’m going to be honest.

I didn’t read anything you wrote.

But i must say bravo for writing so much about a hero you enjoy.

This proves you really care about the game and i commend you for your effort.

This communtiy needs more poeple like you.

Maybe soon i will have the time to read it though.

5 Likes

Remember that reddit is unofficial.

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Remember that, even though things are slower here compared to the Overwatch or even the new WoW one, we will always notice it moar.

1 Like

Hello!

Thank you for you message. I really appreciate it .

I hope you will read it :wink:

2 Likes

All I know about tyrande is that she has the most broken cleanse in the game at level 1 and Elunes chosen at 7 is heroic level powerful.

I also love Tyrande to pieces, ever since Warcraft 3 (Malfurion too).

My only wish for Tyrande is a little more AA damage.

2 Likes

Celestial Attunement is a very good talent. As I said in the original message, it’s the perfect example of the utility Tyrande can bring. I would love to see her “support side” be more focused on utility talent like this one rather than heal.

Concerning Elune Chosen, this talent is a very good achievement from Blizzard. It fit Tyrande gameplay and personnality so well : AA ennemies to heal allies, very pleasant to play. It was already a very strong talent lvl 16 before the rework, when Tyrande was not a solo healer.

1 Like

Imo the Tyrande 2.0 was the best with the owl cd reduction battle momentum build. It had slightly less heal than the current one with better damage, more cc, and piercing poke that was pretty good when you had to interrupt the enemy taking objectives. The Tyrande after this version was a disappontment to me and I didn’t play her as much as before. I used the 2.0 as solo support under suitable circumstances but the 3.0 did not have her place anywhere. You either had to take an assassin or a healer. Sure, she had impressive numbers, but only numbers. She wasn’t strong at anythjing. On the top of that she was mana hungry and weak early game an I’m totally agree with Blizzard’s decision. They had to rework her and HotS has lof of assassins. It would be a waste to make her one of them. Imo she is better as a good support than as a mediocore assassin. I think she couldn’t be balanced because she is eaither weak or op. When she doesn’t deal much damage she relies too much on her stun and suffers because of immobility or she deals serious damage and every stun is a guaranteed kill.

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Tyrande is now the Night Warrior in WoW… how scary sounding ohhh

You can classify her as a disney princess as people assume all her problems are sovled when malfurion comes around. In fact she the one who saves his butt all the time

2 Likes

When I first started this game I didn’t understand why Tyrande was a support. In Warcraft 3 she was a damage dealer with a leadership trait not really a “supportive” character. Malganis is a tank after all and has a aura but that doesn’t make him a support character either. That being said Tyrande is very strong now with her rework and, to me, isn’t likely to change. The HotS team specifically asked the community about this shift on the old forums before starting and I recall it being overwhelming in favor of making her a true solo support and so they did it. Sure it doesn’t fit the character I see for her from those days but I’m happy she’s strong and I like that they asked which way to push her and stuck with it.
Also I think this direction was probably easier to accomplish because just as she is right now if she could follow up on her own mark and CC she’d be an incredible damage dealer rather than just keeping her as is but nerfing some damage, which is still crazy sometimes with the lunar flare talents, and boosting her healing. Making her “support” just isn’t enough with her kit. It’s just a heal, a delayed stun, a line of vision and mark, that isn’t really comparable to Abathur with his global healing, soak, cloning targets, attack speed increases, and mines or Medivh’s vision, invuln, stasis, and dive/escape shenanigans. She didn’t have a place before on a team either. Why take the last Tyrande over an actual assassin? For a 25% damage bonus? A .75 second stun? She just doesn’t enable something like Aba/Greymane or Medivh so I don’t think she was really useful that way. Rather people just took damage talents to play assassin anyway dueling people with their self-heals and speed bonuses.

I sort of agree. Tyrande suffered from an identity crisis, but if I made the decisions I would have committed her to a “Support” path by turning her Q into a Shield instead of a heal and tuning her to match the other Supports, Tassadar/Medivh/Zarya/Abathur… Instead, they went in the opposite direction.

And it worked. She’s better than ever and is respected, finally. I think it’s good enough, if only because it gives me hope we’ll get Shandris for the stealthy night elf archer playstyle we used to enjoy. Tyrande’s abilities are still powerful utility, and they aren’t wasted on stacking infinite quests anymore. I would have preferred a high-damage high-utility Tyrande that worked instead, but if we can’t get that, I’m okay accepting what we do have.

i wont be able to comment much on the lore of tyrande since ive never played warcraft 3, but i did played tyrande from the beta up to now as she was also one of my mains for a long time. one thing that attracted me to her wasnt her ability to heal but her overall utility, i felt i could adapt to a great deal of situations though active skills which she had much more back then, later down the road we got a more agressive tyrande with less actives, but i still liked regardless, but was still somewhat versatile in my oppinion but what i loved about it , she was a end game character which was highly rewarding if you landed all your skill shot, and even up to this dame i rarely played any character that managed to output as much damage as she did back then . the new one feels too much 1 track minded like a simply version if i could say, mostly spamming Q, i do like her healing is increased but i think if they truly wanted that we could had kept the best of all worlds, builds for damage, builds for healing, builds for tools and i think no one would had complained at that point.

2 Likes

I enjoyed the most recent Tyrande rework. Her Q heal was so weak previously, adding the 2nd charge made her a viable healer. I wish they hadn’t nerfed her infinite scaling abilities, because she used to be really fun to play late-game. When they capped the E quest at 20 hits, that was a disappointment.

I totally agree with everything writed, and want to say something from myself.
I don’t understand people, who played Tyrande before and likes her new playstyle now. She LOST almost all fun of her gameplay, meanwhile recieve only increased numbers of heal. As was spoken above, now she is just spamming Q, and that’s all her gameplay now.
She NEEDS to be rebalanced back to support. Everyone is fine by her numbers, but playing her now is just boring. Making game boring in favor of numbers… I think you get me.
Btw, there is a Kharazim, who is a Healer. But he still has choice to increase his damage OR heal. Or Varian, who might be a Tank OR Bruiser by picking a key talents for this. Why not give Tyrande such choice?