Lava Wave & Sulfuras Smash

Lava Wave is amazing. I dare say one of the strongest and most impactful ults in the game. Two problems with it:

  1. it feels dirty winning matches with Lava Wave when I know the enemy outplayed me in every other area of the match
  2. it’s very non-interactive, making it a bit boring

Sulfuras Smash is super fun, a skillshot of sorts, isn’t boring. It’s lvl 20 upgrade is pretty underwhelming.

I want to pick Sulfuras Smash and have fun, but I win more with Lava Wave. Just feels like if I don’t pick Lava Wave, I’m gimping myself and my team.

Nerf LW (by limiting how much XP it provides), not by much, just a slight nerf. Then if Rag is “weak”, buff his base power/kit, so the two Heroics are more balanced and the Hero is more healthier.

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Ah damn here we go again, another LW whine thread, because people can’t soak. :joy:

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This is actually a thread about one ultimate being really good and the other paling in comparison to it in terms of effectiveness despite being super fun to use. Don’t be so daft.

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Nerfing the exp you get could be in the right direction. You cant really nerf it more. It already cost 80mana to use and have 120 sec cd.

Another thing could be reducing the time its active from only a half map down from a whole map. Then you will only get the minion waves on your side of the map while enemy minions on enemy side of the map can still push.

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Nah I just mentioned the essence of this thread and it is basically a “nerf LW thread”. The problem with Rag isn’t SS being inferior to LW, but rather how Rag works in general. You don’t draft/pick Rag for teamfight presence, but makro. And since LW is an easy heroic it’s just better than a skillshot.

Rag is a bad duelist, but excellent in a strong melee setup/turtling, which can support him, because he is very squishy for a bruiser.

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With the exception of Warhead junction, it’s almost always a choice I make based on the rest of my team and it’s kind of a 60 40 split in favour of

The real problem that you’re seeing is the fact that Rag’s kit, not just lava wave mind you, lends itself to the master split pusher and thus his team fight presence must suffer by comparison to other burisers like Dehaka, Leoric and IMperius.
Thus you draft Rag for a purpose and Lava Wave fits that purpose.

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I think of him kind of like the Maiev of bruisers. He’s good when there’s clusters of enemies, not so much against solo opponents. His damage is “bursty,” but he relies on staying in the fight for a while to truly get any damage in.

He kind of almost needs Giant Scorcher at 16 to have that big teamfight presence.

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And suddenly I find myself struggling to take you seirously if you think there is any must pick on his level 16 or that if there IS a must pick that it’s Giant Scorcher.

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Rag threads, my favorite. Rant inc


Lava Wave is one of the few ways I can cheese myself through ranked so hearing people wanting it nerfed/reworked makes me uneasy.
It’s probably deserved though, LW is insane if you know what you’re doing. Rag gets strong enough with levels to not heavily need an R button to win teamfights and while everyone’s scrambling over objective you’re soaking and pushing a lane without missing the action.
I think the XP removal would be a big hit on his overall winrate though. It’d need some buffs in return like reduced CD or maybe some minor buffs to his baseline/talents.

Honestly I’ve never felt this as being that much of an issue. You just need to know how to play it.
As I just said you’re pressuring a lane without even being there, meaning minions can do some serious pushing if no one clears it, and if someone is rotating to deal with it that means you have more bodies in the fight. You might not have wombo ability without smash but Rag deals some really nice damage and E is all around great utility.
You might not be able to suddenly wipe a team being “a body without an ult” but the enemy team will often underestimate you because of that, as well as people who are slow to adapt to how strong he becomes after he grabs a few talents.
With your 4 and 13 you go from being squishy to reasonably tanky. At 16 you start dealing assassin-like damage. And if you still need fight ability submerge at 20 does wonders.

He might not be able to duel but he’s got plenty of AoE and a unique poke to make up for it.

It’s more like Giant Scorcher is just superior to everything on that tier, before even getting to Q build being one of his strongest if not most consistent.
Meatball explosion is cute but for it to get real value you need constant resets from the 7 and for it to actually explode on them (meaning you need the 1 quest completed for consistency), so that talent locks you into a build. Double E is janky, it’s a utility thing and doesn’t strictly help with your kill potential especially considering how unreliable all the E talents are. Sure it gives you a lot of move speed but in my experience the short initial burst is more than enough to get the job done.
Giant Scorcher is 9 (NINE)% hp splash damage. And while Q resets don’t exactly amp it up you’re still draining 3% hp every second on enemies near you, on top of your already fat auto damage. You don’t even need Q talents to get value out of that baby because it doesn’t take much to just keep tapping enemy frontliners who get close with it and just making their lives miserable. It gives Rag the numbers that he needs to really be dangerous to enemy melee heroes so they think twice about closing on him, not to mention the disgusting things it does to tanks that rely on their HP pools like Dibbles. I love the vs Dibbles matchup because between that and armor on stunned you can really dunk on him if he tries getting smart with you

W and E builds can be fun but they don’t nearly provide the kind of staying power and damage Q talents do. While they don’t make you into a sonya they give you plenty of room to be able to hound a group of enemies if you know when to go in.
Mage rag is safe but doesn’t get the job done when you need it, it’s better to play him like a backline melee and only jump in when there’s juicy pickings.
That’s where Lava Wave comes in. It lets you play with more patience because you’re getting value in the lanes and forcing the enemy team’s hand. They can either split up to deal with it or they can engage to try to finish the objective fight, meaning they come to you on your terms. Otherwise you get free forts and keeps while they twiddle their thumbs.

THAT’S JUST MY TAKE THO :upside_down_face:

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I don’t understand the need to be so antagonistic. I know Blast Echo and Meteor Bomb are really strong as well, with Giant Scorcher sitting between the two for winrate at master/diamond SL.

I’m curious, is HotS your first venture into mobas?

Lava Wave gets value only by cleaning pushing wave of minions.
Very little value for catching heroes that didn’t dodge it upon landing.

What would make it more viable is changing the cast range from global to normal range like sulfuras Hammer. Then upon casting its range doesn’t cross the entire line straight to last enemy fort.

Heroes caught while taking damage from lava wave are also slowed by x % because it’s lava. Naturally when you step into the lava you get consumed as the melted rock is like a glue.

Then it wouldn’t be much of a nerf when having a little bit increased missile speed and slow movement.

Lava wave can shut down maybe 1/3 of an objective if timed perfectly on 3 maps in total, every other one the objective carries far more weight and thus team fights can swing the game heavier, furthermore higher up the ranks a team wipe can spell the end for a team regardless of how pushed in their lanes are, if they have a single fort down and enough siege damage a good team can end on nothing but rushing straight to core through a keep even.
Hence Sulfuras Smash becomes more appealing on certain maps even maps that Rag can still work well on (ONly map I hate him on is Braxis and that’s cus people expect the bruiser to be able to solo))

Rag’s damage dosen’t usually exceed other bruisers who also bring their own fair share of utility to the fight

And Rag’s utility is…. A slow at 4 and that’s about it.

You still suggested. That Giant Scorcher was the best and by a significant margin which is false and calls into question your actual rag experience.

Why would this matter exactly?

Smash wins teamfights easily assuming you can wombo your Q - and R at the same time - especially with Heroic difficulty - I think by default yeah… Lava Wave would probably be preferred especially in ranked, but for QM I’d rather bask in the glory that I can potentially end a entire teamfight with being a fort and smashing buttons likeso. But even with having lava-wave it just doesn’t feel right not having Smash whatsoever - I am a tank player so this might be my tendency to having to land skillshots or something idk

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It has a full 6.5% higher WR than Blast Echo at Diamond+ SL. Meteor Bomb has a higher WR but is picked less than 10% of the time. What exactly is all the commotion about?

I’ll tell you as soon as you answer.

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Usually if the enemy outplays you, meaning, they do better than your team. Lava wave is not enough to win. I’v been in many games where the xp I’ve gotten with LW could not make up for my team mate’s suicides.

Giant scorcher is a huge power spike. And meteor bomb is pretty bad Imo.

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Well I’m not answering until You tell me so I guess that means we’re at a stalemate darling

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It’s Blast Echo that I was implying as “if any must pick exists it’s not Giant Scorcher.”

Personally, if I’m against a Garrosh or Stitches, Blast echo doesn’t do me much good.

So that I can provide your initial questions with a more full answer. I’m asking for context is all.

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