HOTS needs a extra layer of complexity

[Phinx-1719]

Lil late. But, majority of people here have no idea about Dota & LOL. I’m not even sure why this is even being debated.

Talents do not equal let alone touch the depth and options of items. You have many consumables and like 70 active abilities from items in Dota. You can recycle parts, sell, drop or destroy. You can have extremely powerful items with heavy risk. Divine Rapier (when you die, drop item.)

Build in many ways. Survive, gain extra gold and be greedy etc. Risky builds (win more) where you need to make use of the extra power but items don’t lead to anything and risk falling behind in gold if you fail. Can plan out later builds or counter build on the fly.

You can pull of heaps of clutch plays,

Swap items in and out of spare backpack. Managing cds. Dropping items to lower mana so you can heal more mana.

Cut trees to run, hide, gank.

Swapping power treads into Int for one extra spell, or Hp to tank more.

When Wisp in TI Ult Tp’ed bought shadow blade (invis) which no one would ever buy on him. And leave the opponents clueless on his location.

Another example is utilizing Mordigan toggle to absorb damage with it’s hp gain. And when the hero got silenced, he dropped the item and picked it up for the same effect.

Buy back your hero.

Dota also has talents now that change their playstyles even more.

Xenterex - Doom, Riki, Visage, Viper, Rubbick, Silencer, WK, NP, Kunkha, Alchemist, Lina, Oracle, Naga, Leshrac, Pugna, Skywrath and more can carry/semi & support. Many play multiple roles such as Doom.

Others claiming you only build one way. You can play characters in far more diverse ways than HOTS.
Doom can tank, aura bot, initiate, refresher/double disabler, CC, jungler etc.

Arc Warden can burst, support, carry, defend, map pressence, (heroes in different locations) - roam, bait, scout, split push, etc.

Tinker’s ult refreshes all abilities and item actives. He can do all sorts of ridiculous builds and roles. Can split push/defend all 3 lanes simultaneously.

Oracle can out heal, burst any HOTS hero by a mile.

Invoker has 12 spells + 3 auras. And many item + talent builds to utilize his various playstyles.

No macro & objectives in Dota? You create your own. The whole game is about objectives.
Items are an objective…

You want mercs to push? Grab Chen, who gains full control of multiple units, unlike the braindead zombie mercs of HOTS. He can also utilize it to roam, gank, farm, scout etc. Get a dragon to tank towers like nothing and gank, take down objectives.

Creep stack, control creep equilibrium , deny/harass (denying gives gold, helps out supports) , roam, counter jungle - there are heroes who can literally roam/gank and nothing else if they want. Shutting down a hero or defending.

Shutting down can be huge, since it could stop one even if fed from getting that big item that he needs.

Kill the mule, scout, vision, runes, bounty, remove enemy vision, macroing minion tower aggro. Unattainable resources with rare teams being able to do it. Roshan, hard creeps or even bait etc. You time your objectives, plan out & when. Day & night can effect how everything is played too.

You have way more variety in team/lane setups. Tripple support, protect 1, support - carry conversions, double jungle, roaming/scout, ganking, counter jungle etc.

In Ti IG pulled out an all melee team. Got counter picked and still won. You’ll never see anything like that in HOTS.

It’s such a diverse open sandbox game. Way too many to name.

Only 1 map/mode? Turbo, 10v10, single draft, random draft, all random, ability pick, overthrow, chest dota, pletheora of custom maps. Some more popular than HOTS.

Let me know when HOTS has 99% of heroes used in world majors. 70-80% more than once. And with various builds/playstyles. An all melee line up, global presence line up etc. Don’t forget Dota has 115 heroes vs 86.

Many people were hyped for HOTS. Me and all my friends. You think us War 3/wow or Blizz fans weren’t hyped for HOTS? How many players are on the blizz client? Everyone knows. Many tried and quit.

I played LOL for yrs. Spent plenty of money, although I dabbled in War 3 Dota. I was more interested in War ladder. Never thought I’d bother with Dota 2. Gave it a shot and loved it more than LOL. Tried Hots. Not even worth it.

[Xenterex-1540]

@Phinx-1719

I’m not even sure why this is even being debated.

then maybe you should have put in the effort to find out before rambling on a pointless series of lines that would essentially demand other people put in more effort to try to make sense of the botched pieces of context you jumbled in an effort to try to interpret sense of what you thought you contributed compared to what you did.

Cool, you toss out a nod to my name, and then list as string of heroes: whoop de doo.

That doesn’t really affect anything I wrote regarding dota 2 across over how many posts, and while I can prob guess you’re in particular to post #217, you evidently didn’t notice i even used one of your listed names as an example of the “point” I guess you’re trying to make, but probably didn’t think through this stuff enough before going to ‘fan-rant’ mode, so clearly you didn’t notice I and a couple others hero already know what you’re trying to ‘enlighten’ people about, but given the grossly lacking about of contribution you put into the sort of stuff, you aren’t keen on noticing that.

For someone particular about something being "worth’ your time/effort or whatever, I’m surprised you thought posting this was worthwhile enough of a waste to so indulge, but well, the compulsion to act on your duty is just so overwhelming at times, right?

[Phinx-1719]

It’s a jumbled since I tried to answer many things.

275 'Supports in Dota are ‘ward bots" who pretty much bring 1-2 skills to a combo and then otherwise burn down on consumable items in ritualistic repetition’ Here’s you post in regards to supports.

There are many more aspects to supports. It doesn’t apply to all of them. Especially with new & updated items, how strong many heroes are early , deny giving gold, talent/item builds & potential to convert into various roles. I named more than 10 who coud do multiple including hard carry. While also supporting far better than HOTS early/late game.

You have over 70 active items in Dota. + heroes who have 6-10 abilities. There’s no way they’re all relying on 1 or 2 abilities even as a support.

[normalice-1189]

I’m inclined to agree. Seems like most games are won or lost at draft, and those that aren’t are decided by which team picks the right level 16 talents. There’s a skill ceiling that seems very low indeed, as more and more people reach it.

[WhyDaRumGone-1333]

@normalice-1189

I’m inclined to agree. Seems like most games are won or lost at draft, and those that aren’t are decided by which team picks the right level 16 talents. There’s a skill ceiling that seems very low indeed, as more and more people reach it.

I think that’s just how it goes with the new changes.

@RightInTwo-11123

Will be a dark day for me if they ever add an item shop. I’ll quit for sure. This is the only moba that stuck for me. Absolutely loathe items.

Totally agree dude! May as well play DOTA or LOL if they do that

[Xenterex-1540]

@Phinx-1719

It’s a jumbled since I tried to answer many things.

and pretty much failed at it. The amount of split focus you put into trying to “answer” so much means you overlook details in favor of just elating yourself in a means that doesn’t reasonably solve the issue you perceive and don’t double-check to offer more particulars to actually ‘answer’ something as you would see it.

1. the forums here have functions for quoting text by highlighting it so it makes a better visual distinction than using ’ ’ ’ ’ bits.

2. The search function can be used to indicate post numbers as you’re referencing #197, not 275. You probably should have done a search for naga and checked my reference point instead of just assuming I don’t know the “answers” you’re trying to provide, but that’s evidently beneath your concern cuz you’re too busying “trying” to actually do what you want. So here’s the problem with your jumble: your ‘answer’ already exists:

@Xenterex-1540

I’ll go out of my way to repeat “what I said” so you can ignore more content, and then pretend your ignorance and misrepresentation are better informed than others because you’re content to lie to yourself.

@Xenterex-1540

“support” for the team roles could actually be used for 3 different positions based on how select heroes are being used – of those 3, “support” still isn’t usually based specifically on a capacity to “heal” but in a couple of other ways based on lane positioning and farm allotment.

@Xenterex-1540

If you read what I wrote, then that description would already inform you I’m describing the #5, or “hard support”

@Xenterex-1540

Cuz outside of “specific” word application, Dota “roles” would otherwise just break down into “carry” “semi-carry” and “support” and just infer “support” means a non-carry hero which ignores the dynamics role and gold can have on how a hero is played.

@Xenterex-1540

Naga could be laned as a “support” or a “carry” and the amount of ways “support” can be used generally doesn’t indicate much, so its usually ‘better’ to use other terms like ‘initiator’, ‘roam’ ‘utility’ instead of just “support, support, support” which is part of why my description was more particular to the “hard support”

I’m more than aware of what items could do for role dynamics, and I’m more than aware the limitations people have in term-fixation when it comes to cherry-picking lines to base their responses on (hence why I spent several posts trying to make a distinction on “support” versus other terms that better serve the the distinction of roles influenced by items.)

However, the issue for the “I gotta answer a ton of stuff” is that they overlook context and content in favor of self-elation to try to assume problems are magically fixed by their shoddy efforts that they don’t pay attention to the particulars at hand, so they conjure problems, and then don’t even resolve them and all the while, don’t pay enough attention to realize that sort of concern for themselves, so they run off to put in more shoddy efforts elsewhere.

[gum-11278]

@robertsonb-1109

Chess only has 6 different pieces but the depth is boundless.

I’d just like to point out the pieces aren’t the complicated part, the limited number of squares on the board is where things get interesting

@Chron-1717

there is nothing blizzard can do that will make this game successful, the population will only decrease over time till there is nothing left.

Aw cmon, that’s not true … Maybe items aren’t the way to do it, I’ll agree there, but it isn’t impossible to invest time and resources into HotS to make it great. Blizz has just decided not to do it.

Probably to focus more resources on mobile trash for quick bucks instead of developing a loyal and dedicated fanbase. So sad they abandon what was directly responsible for their success…

[Onceler-11628]

What are you talking about, there are tickets in hots, where.

I find generally that those who think by analogy, well . . . get fewer tickets.

[Xenterex-1540]

@Onceler-11628

I find generally that those who think by analogy,

If you’re already aware that the story is an analogy of relating the success of a redemption arcade (manifest by a ticket award) to the success in a non-redemption game (higher scores or wins) then the ire you’re trying to raise for the sake of disagreeing with me would be a prudent example of the behavior of which I describe in the later end of my post.

If you’re not aware of the point of the analogy, then you’re the earlier end of which I describe of people underperforming and looking to blame others out of their ignorance.

In either event, you don’t seem to be aware that you’re demonstrating the particular point of that post and therefore reinforce the concept I attempt to illustrate.

On the other hand, your version not only lacks in testimonial depth, it could generally be found to not be the case as a hefty chunk of the educational process involves using examples from one thing to help demonstrate a concept in a different discipline. So unless you have a more prudent effort you’d like to offer, it seems to me you’re more the sort who chooses not to read the rules of a game, and then look to blame others for your willful ignorance

[Onceler-11628]

I find gernally that the more words you use, the less meaning they have.

[Onceler-11628]

Completely agree here. HoTs could be the market dominant MOBA. LoL is clunky, boring, lacks diversity . . . it’s the dominant eSport, yet it’s pretty bad, imo.

Blizzard is doing a few things very wrong. Probably the biggest is not targeting the game to highly competive players: it’s targeted to teens. Policing language, dumbing down characters, and focusing on skins and flash, rather than super high skill cap play.

Everyone focuses on the fact that Blizzard was late to the genere, but they also had a massive preexisting player base just a click away, from other Blizzard titles.

Yes, the player base is toxic, but the player base is also filled with whiners and fanboys, neither of which is going to push your game to excellence.

Read Blizzard/Activision’s quarterly and anual reports, they aren’t good. The titles are all dropping off. The ones that are strong are getting nickel and dimed to death (hearthstone, looking at you).

So, I agree, Blizzard could have a done several things differently, but the problem appears to be company wide. It’s not just that “every game fails”, it’s that Blizzard isn’t maximizing or focusing on what matters.