Are you sure about zeebo?

Take it or leave it, you can say whatever you want, but telling people to wait and see is annoying. You do this after almost every single patch. WereElf is not ranting. They are making points, points you can disagree with and address, which I have on a few occasions myself, just like I have with you and many other people here.

I mean you criticized me for not wording something right, and then I had to link to you that my post was substantial. And even if it wasn’t worded well, the fact that Zagara was busted doesn’t invalidate someone’s opinion just because it wasn’t worded perfectly. People can word things very meticulously, and people like you will still say wait and see. If that was truly the mantra we have to uphold ourselves to, we might as well just shut down the forums for two weeks after every patch.

Probably and what’s wrong about it to wait one or two weeks? I would say it’s nothing compared to the time we have to endure until the next patch. I made my points about heroes like Zagara or Valla more than enough that I agree they are overtuned or busted.

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Didn’t Lucifer post a breakdown of winrates over the various ranks with Zag and she fell below 50% from Gold rank down? If so, then your theory would be validated.

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We were talking about Zag before nerfs. Did she fell below 50% before nerfs already?

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There’s nothing wrong with seeing what’s going to happen, but that’s like inevitable lol. We all have to do that anyways. But there’s nothing wrong with discussing changes if you have a good sense of how the game or specific heroes work.

Like I said, just because you’re not comfortable making any proclamations or your own analysis, you chiming into the conversation, adding nothing of value, and saying wait and see, even when there’s substantial information to dissect, is annoying. Let people discuss, and if you have specific issues you want to address, by all means, go.

Yeah, now you do, but you were also calling Zagara overtuned which is a massive understatement. Other people were making points way before you. When people were saying Medic changes were great, I made my post, and said I’m not so sure and detailed why.

What would have annoyed me is if after writing about a page’s worth, you’d probably say wait and see, label it a “rant” and not “written correctly”.

It wasn’t Lucifer, but here it is:

So you would be correct. At your skill level the Zags were just probably bad.

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Maybe it’s just me, who tries to focus the players to discuss like good players like lucifer. His comments are always well grounded.

And this was already before the nerf? Thanks Minky.


EDIT:
https://www.heroesprofile.com/Match/Single/?replayID=39017308

I played this game past few minutes ago and one of our players (gold) considered me as troll, because I picked Nazeebo first. He raged at me, because he thought Naz is still the old, not relevant hero like pre-patch; people also still ban Zagara at gold and silver, even though she isn’t a problem anymore.

How should I get a different opinion, if most of my games post patch are like this? That’s why I tend to wait before judging heroes, because I know that players around my league are slower to realise what is meta or not. My games post patch feels like pre-patch…

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Well, that’s pretty much the case for every hero. At bronze ranks you have to look more at ranking and the delta between each heroes than just win rate alone.

If you look at the data for silvers in the last patch, you can still clearly see that Zagara is the top at 60%, by a lot.

Have you heard of theory crafting? It’s like imagining how the hero will be playing out. You can do that by comparing the hero’s stats between before and after and use the hero’s performance as a base.
Like with the Failstad rework. His hammer used to get 2 dmg per hero hit, and could hit 1 hero up to 2 times per cast. It was an okay build - not op, not underwhelming either.
After his rework, his hammer started getting 0,2% dmg per hit, and could hit 1 hero up to 3 times.
But after doing some calculations, I reached to the conclusion that this is WAY WEAKER THAN IT USED TO BE. And predicted that it needs heavy buffs. It got buffed. Then it got buffed again. So my prediction was correct.
That’s what I’m doing with Nazeebo too. I’m using his old spider build as a base, as well as his OLD version spider build, which was nerfed for a reason.
His spider build wasn’t too popular, but it was pretty good against squishy teams. And as I already stated, I have experienced it taking down 80% of a squishy’s HP.
So when they buff ALL OF ITS ASPECTS, one could expect it to become overpowered.

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Stukov +Naz.
vs Tracer: Stukov E the Recall, Naz combo.
vs Li-Ming: wait for Blink, Stukov use 1, 2 sec, E+D root, Naz combo.

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I have a strong feeling most posters here don’t play the game

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@Yusuke thats what people said about zagara on day one, and we had to wait an entire month for that fix. Pipe down

Good. Like tracer and other hyper mobile heroes they should be used as finishers, not striking and killing any squishy and getting out free just because “I saw A good moment and they were alone”. At least tracer loses to most marksmen in a 1 v 1 in her current state. Zeratool just dashes in and out and he has aoe to clear waves too so it’s not like he’s suffering if he isn’t killing heroes

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Haha, I forgot about that term. This is exactly it. In scientific terms, it’s like making a hypothesis. It’s like getting mad at people for making an informed guess. You’re always going to have to test out the hypothesis, but if your theory is based on sound logic and experience, it only helps hone your thinking even if your conclusions are wrong.

And even then, it’s a freaking forum, people can discuss things. When we had hordes of people complaining about how broken DW was, their complaints weren’t automatically invalid just because they didn’t express themselves perfectly or did it right after a day.

But we already know the result of these buffs. We had them before and they were nerfed…

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Care to go in details on this one? Or are you just metaphorical speaking about Zag/Valla/Falstad?

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Zeebo’s level 16 spider talent used to reduce his Q cooldown. But they nerfed his Q build by reworking that talent to reduce his OTHER ABILITIES’ cooldowns. So people stopped picking it, and the build became worse in general.
Now they reverted part of this nerf, but they also buffed other aspects of his Q build.

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They were’t all done or nerfed at the same time. We got a few buffs, then they were nerfed to having Naz go from Q being the best build to everyone going toads. Some of them were almost the exact same buffs. For example

This is the 2016 buff.

  • New Talent: Spirit of Arachyr (Q)
    • If your jar of Corpse Spiders hits only 1 enemy, spawn an additional spider.

This is the current buff

  • Level 7
    • Spirit of Arachyr [Q]
      • New functionality:
        • Corpse Spiders spawns an additional spider.
        • If Corpse Spiders’ jar hits only one target, spawn an additional spider.

Then in 2016 we got this.

Talents

  • Level 7
    • Spirit of Arachyr (Q)
      • Increased the number of additional spiders spawned from 1 to 2
    • Dead Rush (W)
      • Reduced damage bonus from 100 to 75%

I know the meta has changed, but 1 extra spider had to be nerfed, but now we’re getting two?

They didn’t notice how powerful Q build was because all the buffs were spread out. The damage was buffed a few times, Spider colony was buffed, Hex crawlers was buffed, Q cooldown was reduced, the mana cost was reduced more than once etc.

I mean, this is a comment from August 2015:

Developer Comments: Nazeebo was dealing a little more damage than we’d like, specifically when looking at his spiders. We’ve tuned his base spiders and their leaping talent down to bring him more in line.

And he did get more buffs after.

Spiders deal a LOT of damage, so adding an extra one gives you a ton of extra dps (Let alone two), and just raising their damage by 2 makes a huge difference since there’s several of them and they attack fast.

You can look at it for yourself. Nazeebo Patch Notes
I can’t blame the devs for missing it the first time, since all those changes were spread in time. This time though, they don’t have the excuse of ignorance.

Pretty sure this is gonna end up making an OP hero. (If you pick Q build)

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I wasn’t aware of this, thanks for the info phaseshifter. Now I can understand WereElf more.

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I’m uncertain if you aren’t interpreting this the wrong way.
Before the patch, Zeebo’s level 7 talent was spawning 2 extra spiders upon hitting a single enemy (Since October 2016).
Now it spawns an extra spider, no matter how many enemies you hit, and additional one if you hit only a single enemy, so still 2 in total.
It only got a buff when hitting more than 1 enemies with Q.

Anyways… after checking out the link you provided I realized that I have made a mistake.
At some point they have buffed his level 1 talent to reduce his Jar’s cooldown to 7 seconds (down from 9) and they made it reduce their mana cost by 10 (to 40).
So now, with this patch, they removed these functionalities from the talent. They baked the mana cost reduction into the ability baseline. And they reduced the cooldown by 1 second (to 8) down from 9, but it no longer drops to 7 seconds with the talent. HOWEVER, the increased duration fully compensates for that, and the level 16 talent buff makes it much better as well.

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