After last patch

So far imo i think 2 heroes still needs a little bit more fine tuning.
Nazeebo spiders still needs a little bit tuning and Artanis shield CD speed too.

I’m playing in Platinum matches, so The Artanis suggestion might sound ‘weird’ for some. I don’t know how he does in higher leagues but i just think that his talent paths should be more defined.

-Naze Spiders
still does ALOT of damage coming from an ability that he is not directly inflicting himself. He throws the urn then he can basically ignore the target and the spiders basically cancels that target out for a period. Especially if it’s an assassin. I think it should be tuned down abit more.
He has Wall, Garg % Spirit ult and the frogs that he can use to do team plays with, I don’t accept that “he should” have that high damage on Spiders.

-Artanis Shield cd recovery
I’ve seen so many times now, WAY to many times where Artanis players go full damage build, where they don’t even touch shield recovery talents yet the shield recovers so fast aslong as he’s button mashing.
I think that the fast CD recovery should only be that lasting if he goes full shield build to sort of be a talent path in case he needs to be tanky at the cost of damage talents.

Damage talents → less shield
Shield talents → less dmg

He’s still close to the bottom of the Bruiser barrel right now so… wrong and no!

That is… what a damage over time is?

you really don’t know how little damage the toads do without toad build and how hard to land a skillshot the wall is if you think those are even that bad

I think this is a git gud scenario, Naz is a good mage who might still need some fine tuning but I don’t trust you to make that fine tuning when you think his other 2 abilities are busted to the point that spiders shouldn’t do good damage WHILE going a build designed to enhance that spell.

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No? He’s around top 10 highest winrate when filtering across all leagues and all heroes.

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Did you intentionally just ignore the crux of the point?
His other 2 abilities ain’t “broken”… i never said that.

Naze has Wall, Frog and ultimate of choice.

I have played Naze and it is really easy to place the wall, especially when you play with your team to wall as a follow-up to a stun.
You gotta see the broader picture… I can’t explain every detail of the game when i’m presenting a point… some things i expect the reader to already be familiar with, especially common game mechanics.

Why dont you focus artanis for last. He doesnt do much

I don’t think Artanis is a hero who needs any kind of nerfs.

13th actually. But if you remove wood league hero rank, he drops to 30th.

7 Likes

Sometimes it’s in the details :slight_smile:

Since when does Artanis do as much dmg as Olaf?

Naz: Why would you nerf a hero, who has an overall winrate of 48% (all ranks) and 53% in dia+? Do you want to send him to the dumbster?

And I don’t want to talk about Artanis, because this hero tends to be weaker than the other bruisers, but I admit that he seems in a good spot after they gave him unstoppable on E.

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I understand that he might have an overall 48% winrate, but is the solution to buff one easy to use ability with immense power really reasonable? Just to bump his winrate?
They nerfed it a little, they should nerf it the same amount one more time.

They could play around with Wall duration or talents in some way.
Like they could nerf spiders and maybe pull down Soul harvest from 16 to him getting it earlier like lvl 7. Soul harvest is sitting on 16% popularity.

In what leagues? In Platinum he basically has infinite shield with a damage build when a main uses him.

And then he drops even further… I don’t like it and no I don’t even ban Nazeebo even more I don’t feel that he is a problem. But even if you’re right, then he probably needs other buffs as compensation.

High silver - low plat.

If Artanis has infinite shield, then your draft seems odd, because your team lacks damage. Artanis great against sustained damage (except Varian), but weaker against burst or % dmg. But maybe I am biased, because when I face Artanis I pick my main Varian and pwn him as twin. :joy: But even Sonya with W build is good against Artanis in my opinion; only D.Va has no chance against Artanis, because she has sustained damage and she can’t break his trait.

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He’s in the top 10 while filtering for all ranks, that’s not even that impressive when the number of Bruisers is only 17
And his popularity plummets the higher and higher you go up the ranks

Hell I’m willing to bet the only reason he’s even in the top 10 at all in all ranks is because he’s being held up by either A bronze teams letting him stack to high hell with no counterplay (of which there is a metric ton) or the fact he can be a great camp taker.

It’s easy to place the most narrow of skillshots if the target is already stunned, being decent at followup is not an argument

You made 2 points about. Naz, that the spiders just “do the damage” and all he does is cast the urn… which is a duh moment cus it’s a damage over time spell.
And you harped on the fact he has other spells so it shoulnd’t do much damage

COnsidering you also think Artanis is OP I stand by my statement you are not the person I trust to be making claims about Naz’s balance even if he does likely still need some fine tuning.

4 Likes

My experience with Artanis is…

  • either I don’t notice him particularly (I have 55% with and 45% against him)
  • or against squishies he shows up, clicks delete, and walks away with 15 kills

In some other thread people explained that for him it’s critical to keep going. If he can be confident, stay in combat, then he will stack and/or refresh the shield, making him invincible and sporting good numbers. In these cases, he is a tank, a bruiser and a melee assassin combined, being worth about 150% of a hero or somesuch.

Gets particularly funny if everyone’s favorite hero is in the match to help him out.

Obviously, lower rank people aren’t so keen on denying combat, the 4 man rotation and mount-dancing that I see on Youtube. If my next paragraph is correct, basically the level 1 clash buffs Artanis by so much.

I generally don’t like this kind of concept, bully to snowball. The other side of it was my unfortunate Valla match, where I (due to lack of ideas) took AA quest, only to have 39 hero attacks by level 24 or somesuch. Whereas if I had a healer glued to me and 2-3 meaty enemies, I could have been more formidable, quite possibly not die (and keep the Gambit) and walk away with 20 kills (had one opponent recently, can’t find it).
Illidan is another hero that works like this. And Tyrande, but she normally has some protection.

Had a 2v1 against him a couple of days ago. Me as Tychus and a Blaze Ally.
He was fighting Blaze and i came in to assist. Shred his HP down to like 10% HP then Artanis started regenerating the shield over and over and over again ontop of that 10% hp.

He killed Blaze and i managed to kill him by the time my Trait CD refresed with like 2% hp left. He almost killed us 2v1 with damage talents just because his shield was regenerating literally as soon as it depleted. Both me and Blaze were agreeing how stupid that fight was.

This is just one example… I can’t even play my Zul’jin anymore cuz Artanis is very popular and i’m not the one banning every draft. Artanis is one of the reasons i opened up a Zul’jin thread.

How can you say that? Isn’t this game a team based game? I’m setting it up from that perspective… It’s a team based game… Naze shouldn’t carry the entire teams damage in that little urn. I’m speaking from an argument that if he doesn’t have Spiders he still has his kit to control an area. He’s not useless without it.

Nerfing spiders would just make it harder to play Naze. Harder doesn’t mean that he becomes bad.
It just means that playing him will require a good player… which will naturally lower his winrates because noobs wont be able to play good enough with him.

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You say he went all damage talents but I read this and I gurante bloody tee you He took Shield Battery at 4 to make this happen, either that or Shield surger given you said he was at 10% health ,

And have you ever tried face taking I don’t know a twin blades varian with no CC? I assure you it’s very similar levles of “I’m not gonna die suckers!” If you can’t pin him down
PLus Artanis is a sustained hero, that’s his strength, whereas his weakness is burst damage, and CC, and chase since he relies on a very narrow skillshot to close anything but a tiny gap before level 20

The only Artanis I lose to as Zul’jin are either A they have a team that is doing something else on top of the Arty to counter me or B I can tell it’s the kind of talent htat would put me on my back foot with pretty much any bruiser except maybe Rag.

Do you know what his win and pick rates were before these buffs? Being a mage with pitiful damage does not a balanced her make even if they have CC that is only good as follow up

I repeat my statement, DO YOU KNOW where he was before these buffs? Bottom of the mage barrel or close to, why? Becasue he was a mage with minimal consistent damage. Now he has access to a build that gives him consistent damage and your thinking “nerf hammer” with no compensation buffs despite all metric data saying he’s balanced or close to it right now

5 Likes

Does it matter? Why break an ability to bump his winrate?
That’s just the easiest way to temporarily boost his winrate until enough players start asking for changes again.

They’re not making him challenging, they’re just multiplying his dmg numbers. Right now they’re too high. Which only means that they should figure out some other way to bump his winrate… not by making 1 of his abilities busted. Simple common sense man… For me it is atleast… Changes made should make it competitive and engaging… Not the other way around.

All heroes on 50% is not possible… that will never happen. Naze spiders are busted but his winrate isnt going up… should they buff spiders dmg by 5-10% you think? maybe that will make him win more? See the issue? Damage number buffs/nerfs has a risk of ruining the experience. He needs more comprehensive changes… Not Simple ones like this.

Face a good Artanis player and he can cancel you hard in a Team fight. Of course allies will also be in the picture but that’s a different issue cuz the MM is random.

Spiders are the only ability Naz has that isn’t telegraphed and used as either followup or zoning purposes, so yes giving him damage on that one ability and not just that but giving him that damage while taking a build designed to buff said spiders (as he is far from the only mage that has a talent build that brings emphasis to 1 ability mainly)

It’s easier to tone down then it is to tone up, that’s just the nature of the beast when it comes to balancing, so they give a huge buff and then tone it down with a more measured approach. and given Naz’s stats right now they’ve been pretty successful as he’s in the B tier according to them, a very healthy place to be.

that is your opinion and it is not backed up by stats or perceived majority opinion.

You didn’t propose any, you just wanted a bigger nerf hammer and didn’t propose any buffs to compensate for what you want, hell your OP doesn’t even suggest you want buffs to the other elements you apparently think the other abilities are perfectly fine as is.

You say this as if I think Nazeebo is in a bad spot, his stats suggest he’s around B or C tier, that’s a good spot. hell that’s where my level 180 main is situated on the overall tier lists. at best he needs minor tweaks but far from anything urgent.

Yeah maybe with his ultimate that a good team should know means play defence for 4 seconds, other then that e can… god swap me if I’m standing still like an idiot or he’s REALLY good/lucky… or if my team aren’t willing to protect a DPS KNOWN for being gweak to dive, yeah I can see it, ZJ isn’t ah ard counter but to suggest Artanis is that big a counter solo is just silly.

2 Likes

Spiders is his damage ability.

Hitting the wall requires a bit of setup, which does happen, but as a damage source it’s less reliable than a drunk Chromie trying to shoot her Sand Blast carefully through minion waves. It also becomes really useful only after 16, if you take the area damage. About half the hero pool can move out of it, one way or another. I see how it works when mages are stacked.

Toads also require a player that just got distracted by their baby crying for help. It is probably the slowest moving ability in the game overall, absolutely everyone should be able to outrun it. The only scenario where you don’t, is Nazeebo being in melee range of some melee hero, or you can afford some damage taken.

Regardless, I think we should discuss pre-20 vs post-20 Nazeebo. I’ve mentioned a few days ago, at level 18 I’ve hit a Chromie with Q and her health bar didn’t move. I’ve many times tried to defend myself by hitting my aggressive enemy with E in the face and throwing spiders on top, only to die and the enemy walk away with 50% health or more, very reliably.

Clearing a minion wave helps seeing the effects of Vile Infection. Before 20, clearing one wave requires a combination of 1-2 spiders, 1 zombie wall and 1-2 toads, plus the AA. Vile Infection adds so much that a single Q or W will clear a wave (assuming a good initial hit) with maybe one or two AA to fix non-hits.

Nerfing Q because a level 25 Naz can oneshot you is stupid. A level 25 Naz can AA you to death. Being a cripple until level 20 and having to play funny to get so many stacks is utterly bad design. He isn’t a total cripple now, but further nerfs would just reset him back to his 40-45% winrate, depending on build.

That’s just my very firm opinion, the judge is the statistics (winrates).

2 Likes

I did, tho not in the OP:

Like that damage can come throu him using Soul Harvets good if they lowered the Soul Harvets level from 16 to let’s say lvl 7. Soul harvest also buffs his overall power not only his spiders.
They could play around with wall duration. There’s plenty of creative things you could do to increase his winrate but it would require more “testing” which is more costly.

alright hten let’s come up with some middle ground

as long as the buffs (though duration of the wall seems a bit excessive considering how good a CC tool it is) but let’s say if these bufffs come in the exact same patch as whatever nerf you think he needs

But if you want to dumpster fire him because the damage is too high for your “unable to counter artanis” butt then no.

I don’t want ANY hero to be trash. Even the heroes i hate to face the most.
I simply would prefer it if every hero was made in a way where they earned the damage they do throu effort.
Key words are Effort → Damage

See you acknowledge that it’s a CC tool… And that’s why i mentioned “Duration”.
you can throw a wall on a stunned target, then lets say you have stukov as healer that can place a silence field inside the wall. Like you can do crazy plays just by his kit alone.

Could give him lower damage but add slowing effects, make it so that he’s a good teamfight hero without ALL emphasis being placed on his spiders.

You talk about stats but don’t mention that Spider build is around 70% pickrate.
Thing of the deep(range talent) is at 10%
Frogs is at 20%

Most Players pick Nazeebo only because of the Spiders. Because everyone knows that it shreds more than it should. Same reason people are picking Valla, because while they nerfed W now her Q has a very high damage.

Effort → Damage… This is the take away from my argument.
Competitive, Engaging, Fair.

Brain & Effort → Efficiency
Not
Break 1 ability → Efficiency.

Still strong, but far from ideal for certain maps and against specific compositions. Thing of the deep for extra range offers just enough flexibility to make certain heroes miserable (Alex, Hammer and few others) and shouldn’t exist in current form. Blood ritual shouldn’t be giving stacks from hero takedowns at all. I simply don’t care that this will pretty much force full spider build for 1-4-7, it is the best possible solution without a full rework, and at least it requires consistency.

Battle momentum talent at 16 is problematic as well but currently is the only thing that makes the hero fun. The entire talent tree is highly dysfunctional but at least the hero is being played and is manageable because he lacks all form of high damage burst.