Whizbang’s Heroes Twist Updates

Ok first of all, chill with the knee-jerk response. Secondly, it’s not just the health change, they’re also fixing an issue where Arfus wasn’t discovering the Shaman and Paladin Excavate legendaries which lowers the pool of hitting the insane high rolls by giving them just a worse pool to work towards. Like sure this seems like an insignificant nerf, but until people play and see the results you can’t go around and just doompost right off the bat without even playing for yourself. Respectfully, you should also use your brain.

I lost a game as Arfus to C’thun. Before the nerf.

A hero having less health means they die faster, and often before they can do the thing they want. Arfus also has inherent randomness with possibly completely whiffing on which excavate minion they pull. You probably just got unlucky and died to someone with a good hand and draw. Maybe you had a bad draw.

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I’m playing exclusively Dr. Boom. The increased health is good. Since the deck is slower, needs more removal to keep up other decks that can fill up their board in a turn. Also, some cards are bricks in my hand. Pozzik, Audio Engineer is weird card. The card itself isn’t a mech. The opponent just play the two mechs next turn. I don’t know what the solution is.

Will we be able to play this format with friends? Is currently unavailable to challenge a friend, it only can be played in Ladder.

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You’re misunderstanding the situation.

Yes, Arfus is stupidly good, but the real issue is that Death Knight is arguably the strongest class in the game right now, and Excavate is still quite good and quite abusable.

Compare this to C’thun, which is itself an incredibly old legendary that hasn’t been relevant for years, running a slapped-together token deck reliant on randomly generated cards from one of the oldest expansions in Hearthstone, and you can see why using C’thun is something of a hard-mode for Twist at this point.

As a die-hard C’thun fan, I am horrendously disappointed with the decisions made that failed to revamp the old C’thun formula, but the issue is that the strongest Twist decks are the most up-to-date ones with the newest cards, and Arfus having access to the newest class with the fewest nerfs in a playstyle that is still relevant in the current meta obviously means he is going to be horrendously overturned and unbalanced, because if you took Arfus or some of these other Twist decks into Ranked, they’d completely dominate the ladder and a regular deck simply could not function in that kind of meta.

Conversely, C’thun could see play if his Twist deck were imported, but because his deck is built around such an old strategy he’d likely get run over by most current meta decks, even with that health buff, not because there is anything conceptually wrong with C’thun, but because the existing assets he has to work with are the better part of a decade old by this point, and the only way around that is to overtune his gimmick, which is difficult on such a narrow timescale since every single Twist hero has to essentially reinvent the game.

My personal suggestion was playing into the fact that they slotted C’thun into the Druid class and having his followers buff the C’thun hero in addition to the C’thun card, giving him attack and health or armor so he can brawl like a classic Wildeshape Druid, but that might be too much, especially with that kind of health buff, because C’thun essentially has ‘Gain 15 health at start of game’ at this point.

Conversely, Arfus has ‘Lose 5 max health at start of game’, and considering C’thun’s biggest problem was trying to break the 30+ health threshold for an OTK, and C’thun now has a 20 health lead to eat a few more hits and focus on buffing, that means C’thun may be the worst match-up for Arfus going forward and the thing keeping Arfus down as people just start spamming C’thun at ranks where Arfus is prominent, because EVERYBODY has C’thun by this point.

This is on the known issues list, but we don’t have a timetable on its fix, sorry.

I would like credit for wins on the character like in previous twist.

Respectfully, this will change nothing. If you want to cry about a knee-jerk response by all means do. The reality about this and I will say it louder due to the lack of you comprehending what I mean, “HP in a game where HP is a resource does not stop a deck that has insane resources to begin with.” Look at the C’thun vs arfus matchup. Unless C’thun kills them with C’thun, they can just gain all the HP back with Primus. There are literally no bad cards in the deck. It is by definition a better rainbow DK than what is in standard. “Have to wait” Do you really think people in high level of play do not know more than the average person. I am still playing vs 90% Arfus and losing when I am top 500 rn. Please do not talk into a subject without actively understanding how balancing works. This may shave off a 1-5% off the winrate but it is still going to be close to a 75% winrate. Have a nice day.

If you lost to C’thun then you either had a bad hand or are not great at the game. Sorry to say a fact. The winrate for C’thun is the lowest in the game at 32% 17% versus Arfus.

Here is the problem already with your statement. C’thun still heavily loses to Arfus in fact just going from the last day of the patch notes. C’thun still is a free win for Arfus. Check out the stats across all ranks with Donkey Hearthstone. I sadly cannot include the link.

Respectfully, HP might seem like an area that would greatly impact a winrate, however, in a game where it is used as a resource, they can just nullify the nerf with other cards like Maw and Paw which C’thun does not have a single target answer for. They have AOE answers for it which are better used when the Arfus goes wide. We can also look at Primus. If C’thun does not OTK them then primus brings them back up the HP of C’Thun’s attack. The issue is they made a hero that far surpasses the others and the only way to fix it realistically is remove Arfus and adjust him so that Twist does not die like every other mode they make.

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Arfus is still completely overpowered, and should just be taken out of the mode, and have a refund-dust period like nerfed cards usually have.

He hard-counters several decks, like Xyrella and Cthun by disabling their powers (discarding Cthun from hand/lowering max hp) and to an extent is able to self-flood hand to deny any bombs from going off (from Dr Boom), while at the same time flooding board and regenerate health from having a bad start, as well as perma-freeze characters.

There are a lot of other heroes in this mode, like another death knight hero, “The Lich King”, so there isnt a lack of choices in this mode. The only lack of choice is from Arfus being too oppressive for every build, so most people will auto-pick Arfus as there is little competition for something that shuts down every build with little to no input.

He would be crazy still if he had the excavate mechanic with a single rune only, and for example 3 card cooldown, but that he can activate it from every rune, means just about every card he plays can activate it. There is just way too much value, from all classes, that he can access with little to no input or investment.

And add to it that his hero power, which only costs 1 mana, lowers cost by as much as 1-3 with the only sacrifice being corpses, something he can flood out, due to the many many many corpse generating cards he has, its not just that he has cards, but those cards can be played for way less than they usually would, dwarfing the value you could get from characters like Rafaam or Kael’thas.

Make Arfus 10 HP you clowns :smiley: Making the win rate numbers look better on paper doesnt make things balanced … Does none on that dev team ever heard of PLAYTESTING things ? If you played 10 games of this mode you shouldnt have released this thing in such a state.

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Arfus at 20 health is just plain BS. Either the people playing against it in higher ranks have crap rng for their cards or the arfus player got a beyond good rng. Ive played Arfus since twist opened along with a couple others. Win rate has been pretty much the same on all them till this “nerf” which is just bs. Ive lost many games now before turn 5 all due to the fact I have 10 less health than anyone. Arfus went from about me winning 50%-60% of games now to 30-40%. This is plain and simple a bunch of whinners coming out and destroying a fun toon to play because they either suck or got bad rng.

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Okay! Whose idea was it to give C’thun, a guy who can potentially gain infinite armor self heal and single target removal late game 80 health?

as he requires time to stack to reach any numbers even potentially relevant, and is hard countered by any sort of removal, thats why

(its 80 hp btw, still beating him with that, as Dr Boom)

“I had a 60% winrate and nerf made it not so anymore”

Yeah I wonder why

They have data on this. When a character is so oppressive few other of their pre-built decks get played because that one is too much of a free-win to play, that is problematic. He was already nerfed to 25 health while others got buffed, that should have been a sign of how massive the issue was, for those who dont see it.

if you consider the buffs/nerfs as percentage adjustments trying to approach the all mighty 50/50 in a match up. this kind of math is nit-picking and often only looks at vacuum stats (win/loss, number of turns) not the play patterns, or the reasons

the starting HP pool for each hero was determined based on their expected win/loss. I will be considering 35 to be the “average” because that is what the majority received, the other option is to consider 30 to be the average, but everything else expected to be worse then Xyrella, or 40 to be the average though that does not follow.

  • a hero that received 30 was expected to perform better then those how received 35 or 40: Xyrella (this is a control deck but really the presumption is that starting with too much might put her too close to her goal especially where she is the only hero with a real alternate win condition, and most of her cards are “impactful” to either her win condition or the board)
  • hero that received 40 was expected to perform worse then a hero that received 35 or 30: Illidan, Leeroy, Finley
  • the only hero to receive 45 was Dr. Boom who was expected at release to perform the worst (he is highly board centrist with very specific comeback opportunities)
    *a hero that received 35 HP was expected to perform to the average, or “I don’t know”

so when they changed the starting health they were addressing the non-mirror (because by logic for pre-built decks the mirror will always be 50% win-rate), but with regards to a base line so Kael’Thas, and Patches are probably close all ready, and the changes made to health as % deviations on the win-rate
35->30 or 35->40 being about 14-15% deviation, so a 35->25 is a 28-30% deviation (might indicate an actual 80% initial winrate of Arfus in non-mirror matchups rather then the reported 70-73%)
then in the second pass consider the deviations separately, especially if these are being measured by spread sheet of match-up; so 30->27 is a 10% deviation and 25->20 is a 20% deviation, though 40->80 is a 100% increase, so maybe C’Thun is just too much of an unknown.

the biggest issue is that all of these decks besides Illidan, Lich King being Highlander, and hyper specific entails that they are very polarizing purely based on Draw, and then when the Highlander rule is evaluated depends on the recency of it (“started with”, vs “currently has”) though this only applies to facing Dr. Boom.

these need changes besides just health or deletion
Arfus: the hero power needs to maybe only reduce each card by (1), not reduce less then (1), or the most drastic “reduces that many cards by (1) for this turn” (this would probably be nearly deleting the hero) and the Passive maybe random runes instead of consistent, or make him play 1 of each rune to get a trigger, the Snake even if it was 1 in 5 would still be too consistent, and negates the intention behind the health changes, also “MAW AND PAW” is in the deck
C’Thun: the hero power, most of the “Followers of C’Thun” are 5 or more mana with a 1 mana hero power results in many late turns with 2-4 mana doing nothing, and then C’Thun only really makes stuff with very limited targeted removal, the number of times with Plague of Flames is the only viable answer to Maw And Paw if Arfus keeps clearing the tokens, or allow Arfus to get more HP then C’Thun’s starting HP when a random Blade of C’Thun can finally answer it. The Hero power needs to like reduce the cost by (1), cost (0), or be like “(1) Choose one - Discover a follower of C’Thun; spend the rest of your mana deal that much damage split among all enemies” and please just remove Glow Fly Swarm it is either “hold to be better then 5 mana summon 2x 2/2” or just “minus 1 hand slot”
Xyrella: update her passive to at the very least be “heal to full to win the game” so that Arfus with the Snake does not crush her hopes and dreams.

and your final bullet points are misinformation:
As a reminder, we intend to do Hero Health adjustments like these as needed, instead of modifying the parts of these heroes that are the problems.

Please note: due to the nature of weekly balance updates that only affect health, and not actual mechanics we won’t be expanding dust refunds in case we accidentally delete Arfus from the mode and might have to refund the bundles we sold.

Puuh.

  1. arfus is too strong

  2. Nerfs weekly for a mode that is on for a month is WAY too slow

  3. I dont have Arfus and crafting it for this only - no

  4. Health changes are so drastic that testing wasnt really done. Man
    Cthun 35->80 thats huge both % or absolute change
    Arfus 35->20 same thats huge % or absolute change.

  5. Not sure what happens to bonus stars when its pretty hard to climb after certain point due 1st point

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Unacceptable.

Giving cthun 80 hp changes little to nothing, when his cards are anti temp and C’thun itself is vulnerable to counterplay. And ritual buff cthun is also very slow compared to other twist heros.

I want cthun’s hp back to 35 or 30 hp, but makes his hero power discover follower of cthun and reduced the cost of all followers in your and by 1.

give: If you used 10 times, add cthun into your hand, to your hero power or buff doomcaller: give your cthun +2/+2/ shuffle a copy of it into your hand (whereever it is)

Make his passive also stronger so that killing any 2 minions or if a friendly minion die give cthun +1/+1

Lastly, replace bad cards with good ones and give cthun good removal. Token based dont work.

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For al akir, replace Alai’r with Pyros.