So for those who don’t know Lorthemar Theron doubles the stats of all minions in your deck when played. Therazine has taunt and doubles the stats of all elemental minions in your deck when played.
This is absolutely ridiculous. I have to blunt here. At least with Therazine you can potentially silence it or remove it from the game with stuff like life sentence, but Lorthemar? No as soon as its played just a flat double all stats for the rest of the game. There is no way to stop this. If you don’t have this card in your deck then for the rest of game then it be very well be game over. And its a neutral card. And I’ve also seen strategies that revolve around returning this to ones deck of making copies of it which makes it even worse.
My suggestion for balancing this:
When either of these cards are played their effect degrades by 2 every other round. So you can still get some good benefit from it. Effects like these I feel need more guardrails on them.
If your deck can’t punish the opponent that wastes 7 mana on a 7/7 with no immediate impact in wild, the problem is not the 7/7, it’s your deck that is absolutely not adapted for the format you’re playing in
Good wild decks don’t even bother reaching turn 7
So your basically saying that if you can’t win by round 7, there is no hope of winning at all? Basically any deck that isn’t aggro need not apply. Thats sounds like a game design issue more then anything else.
- cards are designed and balanced toward standard. Wild is meant to be faster, and even faster after each expansion
- You don’t lose turn 7 just because your opponent played Theron, you lose after they’ve used its effect, which means you only start losing by turn 8-9 when its effect only starts to actually do something, after your opponent lost tempo, equalized tempo, and maybe regained tempo, closing the opportunity window it opened for you to establish dominance
- If your wincondition is so slow that it can’t punish your opponent for playing a War Golem, you’re gonna lose to way more than just that in wild
There are a lot of non-aggro wild decks that win before turn 7, or win after Theron
Some decks are just hard counters to others, that’s what you get for playing (suboptimaly) in a mode with soon six thousand cards available.
You’re trying to blame it on a design that can’t exist
You also can’t win after your opponent plays a card that reads “destroy the enemy hero”, yet people don’t complain about these in wild since they take too long to be played so they are not an issue
Same goes for Theron, the actual wild decks are too fast for it to be a problem
Here’s a deck that can beat it, Boarlock, you can get the Sword by turn 4-6 on average.
Pretty toxic deck if you ask me, but hey…
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- cards are designed and balanced toward standard. Wild is meant to be faster, and even faster after each expansion
- You don’t lose turn 7 just because your opponent played Theron, you lose after they’ve used its effect, which means you only start losing by turn 8-9 when its effect only starts to actually do something, after your opponent lost tempo, equalized tempo, and maybe regained tempo, closing the opportunity window it opened for you to establish dominance
- If your wincondition is so slow that it can’t punish your opponent for playing a War Golem, you’re gonna lose to way more than just that in wild
I do see your point to an extent. Because I did once win against a deck where a rogue was playing and shuffling this card and over and over into their deck. It happened because I heard board control and I was able to win before they summoned enough of them. However I got lucky this time. Nearly every other time someone played this I ended up loosing.
You’re trying to blame it on a design that can’t exist
There are some very obvious broken things in Wild that can stand to use nerfs. This is one of those things.
Here’s a deck that can beat it, Boarlock, you can get the Sword by turn 4-6 on average.
Pretty toxic deck if you ask me, but hey…
This is another one. Egg warlock is another.
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If you want the wild meta to be pushed back so decks don’t threaten to establish their wincondition by turn 7, that’s several hundred cards that need nerfing because of all the existing synergies
Sure you can point out the outliners and instead obliterate some specific cards but that would just be admission of failure
Once you’ve done that, Theron becomes the new problem
But what is the metric that dictates when it’s enough ?
If a 7 mana legendary with a downside is not allowed to be a wincondition in wild, what can be ? What’s even the point of playing such cards if they don’t make you win in a fast format ?
And there are more and more that can be named (Boar priest and Draogn Rogue to name those I play - that are not even good meta decks -, and pretty much any OTK druid)
When there are dozens of decks that don’t care about Theron, are you sure that the problem is that too many decks are even more OP than an OP card, and not that it’s actually not such an OP card and you happened to play something even weaker ?
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Well let me put this way. Imagine if Kelthuzad had effect(every minion for the rest of the game revives the next turn after death. Or what if Story of Amara healed you for 40 health every round for the rest of the game. It feels like a no brainer that having an effect the doubles the health of all minions in one’s deck that can be repeatedly used by shuffling and bringing the card back should not be allowed. And there is a very easy fix for this. Just make it so that the effect wears off after so many minions played.
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Imagine if a card read “destroy the enemy hero”
What a no brainer it would be right ?
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But there aren’t cards like that, right? Oh wait…
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Those cards have very special conditions in which they can happen. Like with Mecha Cthun you have to have all your cards and every other minion in your deck destroyed to win that way. Out of hundreds possibly thousands of games I’ve only lost to this once.
But Lorthemar is a 7 mana cost card you can get the benefits from, far more quickly and more easily.
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don’t you get lor’themar from buying a single march of the lich king pack? i thought he was the free legendary for that expansion, am i wrong?
just saying that if it’s so strong you could do it too.
You are missing the point. I am saying that a card shouldn’t be so powerful that the only counter or one of a few specific counters to it is to also have it in your deck.
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it would be nice if there was an anti-“rest of game” effect card, sure.
well, that’s not lor’themar, that’s deepminer brann i’m thinking about.
i dunno. i guess there could be an anti-deck buffs card too, but i don’t think lor’themar is that OP for wild terms. he’s strong, sure, in long games.
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Yes, but I don’t think that would be enough because you’d run into a similar problem with Steam cleaner or secret removal cards. Steam cleaner is useless in decks that don’t shuffle much cards. Secret removers would be nice if every class consistently used secrets, but they don’t. Not everyone uses Lorthemar so such a card would be dead weight in decks without permanent effects like this unless permanent effects become far more commonplace.
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I don’t know, but I do know he’s obtainable from an achievement. All you have to do is deal so much added damage from enchanter
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Need to deal 150 dmg from enchanter’s effect, casual matches don’t count
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ah. well that’s a lot harder than opening a single pack. sorry.
Just use imbue mage in wild the reckless apprentice +singalong buddy combo helps
PS the enchanters effects stack so having 2 out gives 4x
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The solution shouldn’t be that you have to play a specific class with a very specific kinda of deck to even have a chance against this. I understand that not all decks are equal, but doubling the stats of all minion in someone’s deck with no way to stop it or reverse is beyond horrible. There are other cards that give permanent effects throughout the game very commonly with hero powers. But those aren’t anywhere close to as deadly as this.