Kibler's thoughts on problematic cards [Uldum]


#107

Let me elaborate here. I have a Mad Genius I barely use. If it gets nerfed I get a Legendary of my choice I might actually use.

Nerfing it reduces the strength of Warrior decks in a way that makes games more polarized because the decks that beat Warrior do it AFTER it gets played. Nerfing its early game reduces its overall performance, but more particularly in the games where it’s very polarized to be favored, even if it means I get free Rares and Commons instead.


#108

This.
Yes, you can normally build decks around everything - there are decks that target specifically Big Priest … and lose against everything else.

Just because you can build around it, doesn’t mean it’s ok. Why should I take a lecture and tech my decks against other player’s deck that they just copy-pasted from the internet?

I had two games against control warrior today and both times they played Dr. Boom and both times it was just a HORRIBLE experience. Even if the card was statistically not relevant (it is, it really is) this legendary hero alone makes me wanna quit Standart right now. There is no way that giving all your stuff rush is ok for 7 mana. The card has no counter (you can’t even negate the card somehow) and adds crazy hero powers and 7 armor on top. How can anyone seriously defend it?! I’m really baffled.


#109

Not sure I understood it, but: How about legendaries, rares and commons of your choice?


#110

I think he wants to tell you that he’s not using Dr. Boom so all that he says about the card doesn’t look biased :wink:


#111

Yeah. The problem is not Dr. Boom:

the problem is a Ctrl Build that does not lose to Aggro on turn 6.

Unheard of.


#112

This is why this community is almost impossible. I argue against polarized helpless matchups, and somebody defends them.

Control Warrior has overcome Mech Hunter, the backup ShudderHag package on Murloc Shaman, and is no longer even with Token Druid.

It’s become more polarized in its favorable matchups. The experience of aggro players is miserable. I don’t use my personal feelings not because I don’t have any, but because it’s the difference between complaining about Mugu Cultist and Control Warrior.


#113

You argue that a Ctrl Build is supposed to have a more difficult time against what’s supposed to be their good matchups (keeping aggressive builds in check) and that aggressive builds should get better chances against them, because … polarized matchups.

I hear you; I might be “impossible” but I fail to follow.

No; I THINK, Ctrl Builds are supposed to be good against whatever tries to win before turn 6 and are supposed to struggle against stickier boards, and more resource-oriented midrange builds. Why? Because Ctrl builds are supposed to actually run out of resources at some point.

The whole concept of “rushing down a CONTROL build before turn 7 (or 6, or 5)”, I don’t get it.

Even Firebat talked about midrangy builds adapting to Aggro (like Quest Paladin); why? In doing so, they hinder the power of Control Warrior, thus restoring some form of balance, ultimately stating that he perceives Dr. OP as, quite, OP, just like many others including myself do.


#114

With regard to Warrior, yes.

I am saying that RoS Warrior was good enough against aggro and didn’t need to be even better at it.

It’s also a huge problem for other control decks. They can’t keep up with Warrior’s early game either. I played a game where the Warrior played 3 Armagedillos in a row, followed up with a +6/+6 Tomb Warden. How could I have held my removal against the Armagedillos to prepare for the Tomb Warden? The issue card was Flunky a 2 drop he dropped on draw requiring more of my resources. Removing the new 4 mana Reborn Rush is also very taxing on resources.

Mad Genius is strong, but it didn’t get a buff between expansions, it got insane early game instead.


#115

Cant it be all the above?

Dr Boom obviously needs the most attention. A control deck that never runs out of removal is broken, point blank. There is no recourse to that. An aggro deck trying to play around it simply cannot.

But warrior also needs a not so gentle tap in regard to its early game tempo (that’s also control). For starters why is their most powerfully statted 1 drop also the best control tool? Thats not a choice anymore…you run it in all decks now because it literally is best in slot at all times for all decks.

Why did they get a better fireball?

Why are half of their strongest control tools also among the best tempo plays in the game? Control warrior is amazing because its not just a control deck…its also making outstanding tempo plays at the same time.


#116

The thing about Kibler is that he is intelligent enough to understand but choices to not act is it can.

He just takes whatever people think that is a problem and reverse engine to find arguments.
Exactly because he does it time after time it gets pretty obvious after some 5 to 10 videos.

With that said be right by the wrong reason is dangerous. Wrong fixes can have worse results than no fixes at all.

Also people forget stuff fast doesn’t they?

We’re are all people talking about how extreme polarization undermines players agency?

Because that is exactly what the actual control warrior does.

It obliterates decks with little value and lose easy to infinite value ones.


#117

You guys are aware he was lead designer for WoWTCG right?


#118

Check Twitter for all the pros complaining about Pocket Galaxy after the first day of the tournament in Seoul. Here’s RDU:

“3-4 and out of the tournament, pocket galaxy deciding almost every series either for me or opponent made the tournament feel very bad for me”


#119

Equality doesn’t kill a mountain giant on an empty board. You equality, they hit you, and CC the giant. I can tell you don’t play paladin.


#120

Dude. Kibler is a game designer. It’s on his resume. You are a forum troll. Relax.


#121

WOW CCG designer…

If he depended on design card games he would be literally dead by now.

He has basic notion of design but as designer he isn’t half of the streamer and player it is.
It tells alone big amount of stuff about him.

Next time you try to appeal to authority try appeal for someone who really is a authority because he isn’t any better than you and me to talk about it.


#122

I don’t even understand what you’r saying here. So you’re basically just unaware of all the prizes he won in Hearthstone, the amount of times his deck creations became popular or the popularity he has on Twitch? Not even to mention the HS team actually asked for his advice? (because surprise, they did and still do) :smiley: Because what you’re saying sounds like someone who’s 110% jealous.


#123

I understand Kibler’s thoughts on Mountain Giant being so prominent throughout the history of HS metas. But despite Kibler’s thoughts, the stats provided by Regis from HSReplay don’t back up Kibler’s feelings that Mountain Giant is the core problem.

LPG is nearly as strong as Barnes when played on curve (nearly 70% played winrate). According to the data from HSReplay, LPG gets played on curve around 65% of the time. Those numbers are unhealthy to say the least, and I agree that LPG needs a nerf. CC also probably needs a nerf. If the HS devs HOF Mountain Giant, I think CC will likely go untouched.

And to the dismay of many, I don’t think Dr. Boom will be nerfed. Control Warrior is strong, but has seen a lot more competition for the spot of top dog in the meta since the release of Uldum. I did like Kibler’s idea for nerfing Blast Shield or just straight up removing it from the Hero Power options. Not sure the devs will actually do it though.


#124

Not to mention his many achievements as a pro MTG player years before HS ever existed.


#125

Hey y’all. I know that internet forums have some dumb rule where they pretend they’re actual debate competitions and if you throw a “fallacy” flag it means you win the argument. Unfortunately, that isn’t actually true. And, furthermore, make sure you’re not equating the fallacy (in this case, appeal to authority) with simply deferring to an authority. The dude was a MTG winner, literally designed card games (and continues to be a consultant for game design), and currently runs an incredibly successful channel predicated on his reliable ability to build jank from the ground up and win. AND he is a part of a successful reviewing podcast and Bliz commentator stable. You don’t get to be in that stable if you’re not reliably prescient. If you honestly feel he’s wrong and that pointing at the ideas he’s presenting is equally so then present why. Don’t just say “appeal to authority” like that does anything.


#126

I actually think the card will see change :wink: The card alone basically put the audience in twitch to sleep during the championships and I actually suspected the change to happen back then.

THIS! Like seriously, he’s VERY calm while presenting his case and you can see that he never does those balance videos lightly. Yeah, Regis presents facts based on statistics but it’s also a fact that Hearthstone is a game (funnily enough so many here seem to forget that and handle it like their second job) and games should be balanced about gamefeel. Kibler plays more games than most of us combined if something gets on his nerves, it normally means that something is seriously fishy and should at least be looked at.