*Exit Game* Feedback on why

Multiplayer Discussion
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Hey everyone =)

I’ve wavered back and forth on this and I’ve decided that I’m going to exit “Standard Hearthstone” and, more or less, any focus on this game. I’ll still be playing Wild some but I won’t be focusing on HS as a primary game and, as such, I figured I would leave some feedback on why, etc. in the random shot words are read.

First, to get the idea out of people’s heads, this has nothing to do with LoR. I, honestly, haven’t been that impressed by LoR so far. The gameplay is decent but the game, in my opinion, lacks a lot of flavor/style to it and feels too ‘generic card into generic card’ except for the heroes and poros… because Braum is here for you!

Anyways… just wanted to get that out of the way. I’m going to state my main complaints with the game and why I’m not going to invest (spend) into it anymore on a consistent basis but I’m going to not suggest issues which would go against core gameplay decisions, such as interactions on the opponent’s turn as I feel that is asking for too much of a design change.

Issue #1: Card Generation and Ability to play at my opponent’s outs
This is my biggest and primary issue with Hearthstone and has lead to my slow decline in enjoyment from the game. Simply put, as the player, I can’t play at my opponent’s outs often enough so anticipating card they are holding becomes frustratingly impossible or worthless too often. Lackeys and Zephrys only increased this annoyance as both wind up creating a “large set of options” to play around where ignoring becomes almost a better option. As someone who likes to play decks which have the ability to have variable strategy based on what I think my opponent is holding this just makes the game less enjoyable to me as “playing out my strategy” has become a better strategy than “adapt my strategy” during YoTD in my view and experience.

Issue #2: The game feels stale
Unlike the above this is much more of a “me” issue due to my time of playing HS both in terms of years (since early beta) and dedication. I just am not a meme-er (jank) player in any card game. While I tend not to like the best decks because I despise mirrors I also cannot fully meme. This has kind of boxed me into similiar-ish strategies with different classes over time and I don’t feel that changing anytime soon. The weakening of certain core sets (Druid, Paladin, and Priest) have boxed classes into much more defined playstyles overall and even when those playstyles change they’ll be focused around very specific cards and, thus, be viable for a shorter time or redundantly supported (Resurrect Priest). Wild makes this issue better due to more broad card base to support decks but, in the end, I don’t think Wild is enough to justify HS as my primary game.

Issue #3: Neutral + Class:
This should maybe not be touched on; however, since MSoG had tri-class cards it is something which I feel could be looked at in the future so decided to have this as a section. Something about the class + neutral system feels so much more restricting than the color system in Magic and, in my limited experience, the nation system in LoR. Not being able to mix advantages of classes together into archetypes and different leverage points just feels very restrictive as a player to me.

But… this is just my viewpoint:
I’m going to leave here by saying that just because those are my issues doesn’t mean things should be changed necessarily. Blizzard appears to want RNG/Discover card mechanics in the game for the “WoW!” and highlight plays and for a segment of the population (and it might even be the greater percentage) these mechanics help keep them in HS where Magic (my preferred game) can sometimes feel like a long, drawn out, math equation.

So play what you enjoy but I wanted to leave some feedback and while I’ll still be here some it won’t be as much as I was because, again, HS will no longer be a primary game for me =)

All the best and if any of you decide to jump on MtG:A or LoR and want to chat/play feel free to jump on those channels in the Discord: https://discord.gg/jfUtKzE

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This is a quit post to be taken seriously. And yes I do feel that card generation have gone way out of hand. The sense of I cannot play around everything so just pray he don’t discover XX is taking something away from the game. Also, the increasing cost is a put off. Hopefully they can put more creativity in the next rotation and less money grab.

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Really well said. The RNG and continual degrading of decision making, coupled with for me, poor balancing is pushing me away too.

Cost, dust economy, and nickel and diming tactics also kill it for me.

Thank you for expressing what a lot of people feel very well. I doubt anyone at Blizzard are gone be paying attention though.

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Very much hit the nail on the head

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Dunno, spend two days checking out battlegrounds now that they are finally at a reasonable speed (imo) and two more playing runeterra.

I want to log in to do the quests, but I’m simply too bored to do so.

As I said before, I find the game ageing badly, and it’s not the last expansion, but the couple of last expansions that slowly transform the game either into a pure slot machine or into a “a drew my win card first”.

Still, sad to see even the veterans leaving.

Glhf on whatever you choose to do m8.

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Much better than most “I Quit” posts. Well reasoned and rational … and you properly couch some aspects as being “you” more than “the game” as motivations. You’ll be missed, but your reasoning cannot be faulted. Farewell, where ever you fare.

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I completely agree with your first point.

This is my biggest concern with the game as well, as it just feels like a lot of the time in close match ups its whose lackeys discovered the best minions or whose Alexstrasza had the best high roll that determines the game rather than strategically outclassing your opponent.

I’ve definitely dialed back my hearthstone, as well, because of these certain design decisions and have been playing more gwent lately.

I really hope the Hearthstone Team can get away from this design philosophy, because I feel the competitiveness of the game can go in a real bad direction if they keep going down this path.

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I agree that card generation is huge issue right now. But I also think that this “Establishing stronger class identities”-thing developers itself talked about (about half year ago) was mistake.

My only reason to continue playing this game is Wild and cards already there that do not always fit to this new type of strict class identity.

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I’ve already expressed my thoughts on the discord server

I fully agree on the heavy RNG and the excessive cost of standard vs wild, which is funny because standard was advertised as an easier to get in mode, but its constant changes make it hard all the time: why would you invest on a deck if it will be changed with little to no refund and you have to further invest into something else? wild is more stable, yeah, maybe there are way more expensive strategies but also plenty of cheap and effective ones that would rarely be forced to change, specially when you end playing for fun, hence why they don’t promote wild, they lose income

These last few weeks i’ve been logging on hearthstone only to play BG almost exclusively, even with the current state where you must play demons or highroll else you die, it feels fresher and also cheaper: aside from a 30 pack investment, you get everything else for free, and even without investing, you can play fully and enjoy it

Standard has lost that magic, it has become boring and suprisingly restrictive: devs have a tendency to develop a strategy, quickly drop it without support, then release new cards for it years after the original cards are no longer available - legacy support exists on many games, but it works there because it either doesn’t have full rotations or because the cards are reprinted, here it only works on wild which is highly unsupported beyond this phenomenon

Won’t talk about the neutral cards and cross class builds cause that’s not only whole topic on its own but one that is also impossible without redesigning the whole game - although one I could only wish about

In a personal matter, I think hearthstone is lucky it is the only mobile game I play and hence why I keep playing it, specially thanks to battlegrounds mode, else I would also have left it by the reasons listed above

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Sad to year you going, but obviously if you are no longer having fun you should move on. All the best! :grin: :+1:

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I ll agree with everything you said and especially with

a)

b)

And let me also add this games cost which is amazingly huge
Anyways Lykotic im thinking of trying LoR as well so we might see each other on Discord again. Not sure if im gonna stay on Hs or not but one thing is sure: This community s gonna miss you a lot. You were an irreplaceable member of it.

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It feels like a well thought post, having valid points but also a big dose of fatigue.

Personally, I stopped playing Standard somewhere around ungoro. In that time, I’ve got a couple of times to legend and until then I just farmed for r5 just out of habit. After a few weeks in ungoro, I just realised that I had zero interest about Standard as a mode.

Since then, I never touched Constructed again. I returned to arena, a mode I always had fun in and the mode which got me to HS since its release. Battlegrounds was perfect too, I had tons of fun since it got in open beta.

My reason for stopping constructed was just natural fatigue. I don’t think that any change can make me return. Maybe time caught up with you too.

Nevertheless, I hope you find a game (or any other occupation) that you’ll get the most fun out of it. Take care!

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To address your first point.

I am generally an aggro player. And it feels terrible and helpless to play against those very same deck types that are countering everything I do.

For that reason I had also played OTK decks since I could just bypass the opponent’s scorched earth strategy and kill the face directly.

But Hearthstone control players are very vocal and complained excessively about OTK, so they listened and stopped OTK support and created value support.

So now we see control players complaining about value. So the million dollar question is…

Is there anything that’s OK for control players to lose to and not be a lamentable game design problem?

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I’ll quote a Magic meme here

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/572249137827807272/651971827228213249/9pt7z05ezvp21.png

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This x 100000000

This is my #1 complaint.

It’s absolute garbage that decks can generate so many cards that didn’t start in their deck.

It was fine before when you could Stonehill Defender a few times and understand that they at least have a taunt in their hand.

It was fine before when you could discover a copy of a spell in your deck…you only got to do it twice.

It was fine before when you could discover a potion.

You only got to do these things 2-4 times a game and maybe 6-8 if you abused mechanics to do it.

Now? Lackeys have completely ruined the game.
Discover a spell. Discover a spell that can discover a minion. Discover a Dragon. Discover a dragon - who can discover a dragon who can discover a dragon who can get your more spells. Discover a spell that can discover a spell. Get more lackeys. Discover again. And again. And again.

The card generation is bonkers.

Small card generation is ok. Massive card generation is not.
Massive card generation leads to you being able to build a deck that has no need for tech cards. Quest shaman was a prime example. No need to run hexes or earthshocks. You’ll be discovering them as you need them. Played against a shaman the other day that played 6 hexes and 3 earthshocks, none of which started in his deck thanks to discovery.

I despise massive card generation due to the discover mechanic. If you want to create a card generating deck, you used to have to just generate copies of cards you already had (like banker, faceless manipulator, etc). Now, card generation is so massive that you can create 30+ cards on average that didn’t start in your deck with decks like Galakrond Rogue. That’s why the deck is so damn good.

And if all this wasn’t bad enough, as if card generation wasn’t problematic, you even get cards that discover perfect answers in Zeph.

You’re right. You can no longer play around what your opponent has…because you have no idea what they have when they’re discovering a new card every turn.

Sorry for the rant. lol

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Yeah, I can see all of this. I’m also transitioning to wild, I think. Just more variety and less predictability.

As far as the card generation…eh, I kinda get it.

On the one hand, it is cool to know what your opponent, could have, predict it, and counterplay accordingly. On the other hand, that’s based on playing the same matchups dozens of times. That’s, by definition, repetitive and boring.

Magic OG had physical limits on the cards you could have. That created variety. HS is cheap, so you need another way to create variety. They chose RNG. Maybe some day there will be a more sophisticated dcg that will be able to sustain novelty while being strategically engaging.

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I agree with what you said about the issues hearthstone has at the moment.

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So we need OTK back?

Since it has no use for discovering cards.

But somehow I’m supposed to believe another similar lamentation thread about OTK won’t come up.

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Here’s the thing about control as far as I see it.

Control players are perfectly ok with practically any deck type…as long as there is an option to tech against it. That’s the definition of control. Getting mauled by quest mage? I can tech against it and remove tech against something else. Getting mauled by aggro? I can tech against it and remove tech against something else. Getting mauled by greedier decks? I can make my deck more greedy and sacrifice win % vs aggro.

But there is nothing, absolutely nothing you can tech against to stop TECH generation. There’s no way to tech against a deck that runs a package that generates tech card generation. This is why DK Rexxar was single handedly the best card at one point - it had the ability to not run any tech at all because it had a card that could generate tech…it could generate silence, lifesteal, taunt, removal, etc from a single card.

Lackeys are doing this now. You could argue that the player could run a lackey package to counter and make the field even, but when certain classes have distinct lackey advantages, you aren’t going to compete.

So, to answer your question, “Is there anything that’s OK for control players to lose to and not be a lamentable game design problem?” the answer is YES…it’s ok to lose something that has tech available to help beat it. This gives you the decision to tech or not to tech. Massive card generation that generates answers does not have an anti tech.

There is nothing wrong with OTK at all. The question is, can you tech against it? If there is no counterplay, then it’s inherently broken. Nothing wrong with Holy Wrath Paladin at all right now. You have the ability to run Hakkar or something similar like albatross, etc.

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I have always enjoyed your posts.
I started playing to get the card back mount in WoW when hearthstone first came out, and got hooked. I quit WoW and started in on hearthstone. My very first CCG.
I think as most people have already said, you hit #1 on the head. No matter how well I play the game, my deck, my counters to whatever you play, on a rng whim, i can still lose. Now dont get me wrong, its a card game, random happens, but I feel it shouldnt at this level.
I miss the days that I could “know” my opponents deck, and play accordingly.
Granted, I never play hard. I usually dont even play during the week or do daily quests. I’m a weekend warrior who plays, has a few beers/drinks, and watches tv while doing so. But I as well, have slowly found my enjoyment slowly declining. Partly because of the random, and partly because of the cost. I have disposable income. I dont mind dropping $50-$80, per expansion, for something I enjoy. Heck, my wife and I spent over $200 to be locked in the trans allegheny lunatic asylum on an overnight ghost hunt. (It was worth it :slightly_smiling_face:).
But this time, adding the adventure, with collectable cards, that you either have to spend real $$ on, or gold, that’s starting to push it for me.
Anyways, I digress. I’ll miss you on the forums as much as you used to be Lykotic. Much luck in your future gaming endeavors.

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