The skill-modifying (not general skill-related) aspects were not in the beta in the Codex among any of the greyed out tiles. So either Wowhead are just assigning them to the list, or the final game will expand the codex, or some aspects are never coming to the codex for a reason.
It’ll be hard to change regardless. You still need to grind those items, grind those other 2 types of aspects and grind the min maxing, if you so choose.
The POINT here with this solution is that the colourful and interesting modifiers to some of the skills means you can initiate a baby version of your build by points respect from the get go, if you choose to invest those points, if you are at the appropriate level and if you make that compromise to fully specialize. All this without having to re-initiate half of your gear grinding process…which is going to become a chore soon (for the relative change you want to effect).
I’m trying, but which point in the gear process are you talking about when you say you’d have to “re-initiate” half of it? I can’t tell if you’re talking about respeccing here, or starting a new character and refining your build before you commit.
At any point where you decided to respec and try a new build. At around 20+ legendaries start dropping and this process initiates- the later the game the bigger this problem gets. We’ve now seen from our beta experience that builds are nothing without these legendary aspects in place, usually from each of the 3 categories.
If you decide on a whim to change from whirlwind to rend barbarian, and you’ve gathered a bunch of WW items, you’re going to have to pay the respec cost in gold, then look for similar items. Now, for the first round, the way the system is now, you imprint the aspects you’ve found, unless the combination for your build requires affix and aspect to align which you dont have. If you want to go back, you’re screwed, if you want to try a 3rd build, you’re screwed. Then we’re back to the same issue of grinding the same/similar items and more or less same affixes.
If we have to DO AWAY with the item because the affix-aspect relation ship doesnt fit our new or 3rd build, we have to start all over. Because you can’t extract aspects a 2nd time.
Half of this problem is alleviated in the suggestion. It wont necessarily make the experience less grindy, depending on how min-maxed you want your build, but it will make an effective start to your build possible much earlier while you grind for your items.
Difference/Conclusion:
(Current) If you want to change your build you need the same items first.
(Suggested) You wanna change your build you can start early and change your skill points so long to feel the impact earlier, and keep the grind fresh
I read and watched a lot about the closed beta, but you dont need to play it to realize that this is the current entrenched system and what the ramifications will be soon. We were able to make some keen deductions with the range of aspects we had in the open beta. That’s when it became apparent where this is headed.
Some people might love the current system. Maybe they love not being able to EFFECTIVELY respec on a whim because the aspects dictate the build (not inherently bad at all), but this will mean you will have to LOVE grinding out the same items over and over again.
Essential, if you decide to change your build you reach a plateau of staleness, grinding Anica’s Claim or equivalent experience just so that you can INITIATE the new build once all 3 items are in place. Heaven forbid you try to go back to your old build now
I’m just asking because I think it’s fundamentally wrong to say this process initiates at 20. I played all classes to 25, and at no point were build-specific legendaries necessary to advance the content. Heck, for Druid I never even had any legendaries that applied to the skills I was using.
I think as you’re leveling up and playing the campaign, there is no need to be hanging on and trying to replicate every legendary Aspect you come across. You use it until you get replacement gear, salvage the Aspect if it’s worth keeping, and then move on. Maybe the loss makes you experiment with something different, maybe not. But I don’t believe you’re intended to spend mass quantities of gold and time dragging the same Aspects around from level 20 to level 100.
I think you’re probably supposed to get around level 50 or so, start delving into Paragon, and at that point you start making hard decisions about where you want to go, because you’ve used the previous time to experiment. And I’m okay with that.
It’s at whatever level Blizzard has decided legendary aspects start dropping for you.
The reason I say it starts here, is that you have an imperfect/incomplete build before you have these type1-3 legendary aspects, right?
Almost no one would argue that, it’s then just a matter of acceptable effective performance, right?
Yeah, I had a WW build, for example. But it wasn’t NEARLY as effective as this:
Ok, so the moment I added those type 1 and 3 aspects, boom the build clicked. The gems, weapon upgrades were just the cherry on the cake.
The difference was massive. So I’m not saying with my suggestion that you wont have to grind anymore, the suggestion means that the requirement for permutations of affix+stat+aspect is lessened so as to become more tolerable and “respec-friendly”
I then respeced again and used this same approach, but for my atk spd Rend build. Again, a huge performance increase- luckily the items were available, with massive grind and Beta being 300% droprate.
Yes, that’s my point though, you can’t start changing your build effective before the aspects + items are available to you. The suggested solution additionally spruces up the criticized skill tree.
Of course, you have stashes and Codices for this. However, is the system more or less respec-friendly for it? I believe part of Rod’s controversial statement that later on respecing will be prohibitive and you might as well start a new character for a new build…is founded in this very problem, and NOT necessarily the gold cost
The beta has shown us examples of what a minmaxed level 25 character can do, but it’s not representative of anything that’s actually going to happen on a live server. Your WW Barb will not be and doesn’t need to be that effective at level 25 for you to have fun and progress the content. You seem very intent on over-investing early into builds that are perfectly playable without that investment.
I have no doubt that some of them will feel significantly weaker without specific Aspects to accompany them, but again, you might as well be using this time to experiment with your build anyway, not setting it in stone.
And many of us don’t see prohibitive respecs as a problem. It’s not a controversial statement; it’s an intentional design choice. And like any design choice, some will love it and some will hate it.
I’m fully aware of this and aware that should enemies scale with your subsequent levels they also gain armor that dampens this damage. However, this does not at all diminish the concept I am getting at for build effectiveness that harnesses all the correct modifiers and damage multipliers that need to be in place for builds to come on line.
This will still hold true at ANY level in the game.
It doesnt have to be anything. But is there a way to extract more effectiveness from the game systems? Yes. You can take 5 minutes to kill a boss if you want, or 30 seconds at the same level. Your choice. I often choose fun builds over meta builds, understood
For some players the “FUN” factor is linked to this. It’s not a matter of over-investing into builds, referring back to the above point I made, this will become a bigger problem as the game goes on should players try to respec, and yet it’s a problem early on, in terms of not only effective through DAMAGE alone, but also the fun factor in UTILITY. You can do different things, damage/min-max aside, with these Type 1 aspects that I believe should be in the skill tree for this reason
It was absolutely controversial, search any forum/sub by topic.
I agree the design choice is made, but is it beyond compromise even at this point? The suggestion isn’t a ground-breaking revolutionary shift, albeit one that demands some rebalancing.
It’s just fundamentally not true that you’re locked into a build at that level. I don’t know how else to put it. It’s really unnecessary to min-max legendaries during the leveling process, just like it’s unnecessary to gear a level 20 character in full uniques in D2. And you’ll always have access to the codex, which will have most if not all of the aspects you want.
I feel like you’re now complaining that it’s too hard to lock yourself into a build at early level, but I thought you didn’t want to lock yourself into a build in the first place?
I know, you are NEVER locked into a build. You can run around with no skills on your action bar at any stage of the game if you want.
I’m saying, in order to be effective you make the leap to a new build when some of your cornerstone aspects are in place (often the Type 1 aspects, and even if the cornerstone is NOT the type 1, thematically, if youre going to move any aspects to the skill tree to alleviate the requirement of permutation in items to sustain respeccing, it would be the Type 1 aspects).
Agreed, but this is not the problem Im getting at.
No, I’m saying the cost of respecing isn’t primarily the exponentially increasing gold cost, but the chore of grinding for the same items over and over again, and it gets worse the later the game gets.
Having Type 1 aspects in the skill tree will soften the blow and make build respecing more viable earlier on and into late game too
I get that, but that’s an endgame activity. It’s not something you should be or are intended to do during the leveling process. You can of course do so if you choose, but it will be unnecessary, and you’ll be leveling while you’re trying to find that gear anyway.
No.
After all the talk of freedom you championed in the previous comment, you now impose such arbitrary limitations to support your view. A more elegant and seamless approach to whether and what players should or shouldnt do would be to put type 1 aspects in the skill tree to give them a fighting chance at all levels and ability to respec effectively a little earlier on, as well as sprucing up the skill tree
This comes back the problem described in the OP. Same problem whether youre levelling or maxed.
I’m not imposing any limitations whatsoever. You have the freedom to try and get BiS gear at level 20 in all of the Diablo games, but nobody does it because everyone realizes it’s a waste of time. That’s no different here. There’s absolutely no need to try and minmax a build to that degree at that stage, and nobody’s saying you can’t do it, but if you do it it’s by definition going to require more time and energy than it’s worth, and that’s a choice you gotta make yourself.
You wrote that players shouldnt be respecing early to support you opinion on this suggestion. That is at the very least a firm suggestion for what you believe should ultimately be imposed, however indirectly, on the playerbase. Anyway, on the topic…
It’s not about arriving at BIS at early levels. Please be mindful of this.
Items provide 4 things:
stats
skill points (in specific skills)
affixes (sometimes stats)
aspects
You get this early and Im saying that without min maxing, without BIS, you need some of these combos in place to have an effective build. They ideally (because of how the game is currently) have to all be in your possession BEFORE you take the leap to respec. Because you will be potentially leaving an effective build for a crap one unless you do have them ready.
The suggestion makes it possible to jump just that much earlier with a skill point refund. That is only part of the value.
EDIT: And the reason I can say this is because of how vastly different performance of builds are without them in place now that Ive tested it in the beta as much as I could
Well, but you don’t need them to have an effective build. You need them to have an effective endgame build, but you don’t need them to have an effective build during the leveling process. Your stats can literally be random whatever rolls on the next piece of gear you pick up.
Ok, ok, ok, “effective” is a bit…subjective, right? I mean for the massive difference in performance once you align your builds modifiers and multipliers; I classify that as “EFFECTIVE” and if they arent there, it isnt.
That doesnt mean it’s always the same aspects, you have a large envelope of variability that permits some flex here, but the point remains.
As stated above, you can take 5 minutes to kill a boss if you want.
Or you can take 30 seconds with the same character, at the same level.
Saying all this is to get back to the point being a suggestion is made to shift some of these cornerstones to the skill tree (and not only for the sake of respecing and initiating builds a bit earlier without the chore of finding new items before you can cross the THRESHOLD of that effectiveness).
Repeat again, stats are but 1 of 4 entries in legendaries. And for the above-mentioned threshold you randomness wont always be sufficient- this relays us back to same item grind. Something we will be keen to avoid to that extent just for the sake of a slightly more convenient and streamlined respec process at all levels of the game when legendaries commence
So would you argue that you can’t level up and complete the campaign in Diablo 3 without a full set of 6-piece class gear? Or rather, that it wouldn’t be “effective” and therefore not fun?
Not only you don’t understand game mechanics and math, it seems you also can’t make a good argument.
Really? Think. Take a second… and think. Is Diablo 3’s infinite stacking dmg into the trillions the ideal gameplay loop for MOST people?
Also note that the range of multipliers is very wide across classes. Some go for 30%, others for 200%… the low multiplier classes will start much stronger (rogue, necro), but will never reach the crazy scaling dmg of the ones with 200% multipliers (druid, barb) by end game.
Justify to me how classes being limited to early game vs. late game is a compelling game mechanic.
Sorry, could you clarify that? I’m not sure I understand that or how you extracted that from this thread.
I’m against D3-style power creep and number bloating. Luckily this around there are more substantial caps on multipliers and enemies that scale with level have armor too now.
Under either condition, there still are what some would call an effective build and not. Even for the exact same skill point distribution, we are seeing a MASSIVE difference based on the aspects (and some affixes) alone.
I’m simply suggesting that the type 1 aspects be put into the skill tree so that the 4-5 entries on legendaries don’t have to be like the stars constantly aligning to facilitate a smoother build respec, without going the full distance in constantly looking for the same items at that particular player level over and over again.
If you want to spec back to your old build you’re going to have a problem, especially where imprinting is involved. The problem as a whole will be amplified more and more into late game and as Blizzard keep adding more and more aspects to the game- essentially diluting the drop chance of the permutation you are looking for, exponentially
