Just realized that crit and vuln should just be removed

PC General Discussion
21

Dont agree, vulnerable is not needed for every build, its just used because on paper you get bonus damage and a mutiplier, so yes that how you make a vulnerable build.

but you can build without it, and still hit in the millions, with other mutipliers, that exist for other builds and skills, and when you try to do it all, you cant be effective since that throws off the balance, like it should.

Crit is a given in every game. so who cares, you want to increase chance and damage.

Vulnerable needs a nerf though a base 20% damage that can be built up is too high.

I can kill stuff t100 without vuln, i just can stay alive easily, resistance is too weak, and i need luck of rng to boost defence more.which mat help.

DPS is not a issue with out vuln, who cares if its slighty less numbers, monsters die the die.

Nothing is mandatory to beat the game, only to flex.

Vulnerable is not default a multiplicative to your damage, it has OP base damage bonus and it can have its own multiplier added to damage, this makes it stronger than a multiplier to burning damage, if your burning damage sucks, but you can build for it. albeit things are broken on that path rn.
But if you find other mutipler to damage without conditionals or that are part of a build, you can add vulnerable ontop, sure, but at some point you make a choice. take vuln lose this, so it comes down to closer performance at that point.

so if i swap out teleport for frost nova, i can gain vulernable and this can give me that bonus damage and it fits my CC build, but i loose the mobility of tp and the higher CD on the Skill, so i would need to take something out to put a Vulnerable multiplier in to see bigger gains, I am using creeping death, so having freeze adds a 4th CC, but is slower for my build so i can gain sometimes, but sometimes not i loose my power to have 3 TP in the build providing stun, and is a faster CD than having frost nova,

The wording matters more than X means mutiply, i thought inner flames was busted, because i was looking for a multiplied damage, but it says pyromancy skills, so when i hover over the skill bar i can see that the SKILLs do more DPS and if i stand still and get shot my heath goes down and so does the skill DPS,

22

D2 itemization is a lot better but with that comes the fact build Diversity in D2 is absolutely trash by today’s standards and that’s saying a lot compared to this mess we are dealing with on D4.

23

Personally idc about better items in a 20yold game, that offers me baal runs. Great for its time. Still a classic solid game.

Only thing stoping build diversisty right even in some meta, is getting one shot.

There is little you can do do boost defense when monsters do 20% damage as Cold damage and even over 50% plus armor does not enough and you take a good HP loss per hit.
So RNG ing to and enchant gambling makes defense hard for most builds and classes.

24

For me crit and vulnerable aren’t the issues, the biggest problem is that every other stat is trash. Too many conditional multipliers that make no sense. Just look at PoE you can easily make a non crit build that is just as good as a crit build. What we need are stats like physical % damage, elemental % damage and flat damage numbers instead of this garbage “damage while slowed, with swords, vs elites”. Lucky hit is a nice addition i think but too few lucky hit effects are there.

If they don’t change itemization to a more “traditional” approach, no amount of seasonal content will change how garbage the game feels.

You must be joking right? Hypothetically if you are doing lets say 5mil dmg with your current build, just by having 100% vulnerability you’d be doing 10mil… is that a small amount of dmg? 100% vulnerability is so easy to get and what would you be losing? maybe 100-150% of the garbage stats?

Let’s make a quick example with some random numbers. Let’s assume a base damage of 20.000 with 300% crit 0% vulnerability and 1000% the random garbage stats like “vs elites, with sword, while slowed, etc”. So your final damage would be 20k x 4 x 11 which is 880k. Now if you change your build to incorporate vulnerable and you get 100% vulnerable while you lose 150% of the garbage stats you’d have 300% crit, 100% vulnerable and 850% garbage stats. This is 20k x 4 x 10,85 x 2 which is 1,736Mil. Almost double the damage with very small effort.

You always want to keep the damage buckets in a similar percentage for maximum damage. You never try to build your damage with only 1 bucket really high or even disregard a damage bucket at all.

25

No i am not joking,

  1. i dont have job hours to play the game, so RNG is going to set me up, My stats have nothing to do with Having garbage stats,

  2. you sound like a minmaxer so this is probably pointless.

  3. my damage is viable, idc if it hits 1 mill or 100, getting one shot is everyones problem.
    so off screen builds for certain classes will do beta but proves nothing,

  4. I can take vulnerable, and what i loose is not gargbage i gain nothing,and would have to find gear to stack vulnerable, take out a glyph swap it for exploit. level that,

  5. to gain more dps which is not the problem so…this helps for nothing really.

  6. again with the math, i dont need it i can see in game, Idk what “garbage” stats you think i have but its not worth bigger numbers and is not the goal for me to flex damage numbers.

A multiplier to damage is a multiplier to damage it doent have to be a when monsters a vulnerable on, i can hit over 2 mill with out it, same as i say someone with it.

I already said vulnerable is OP i get that, it has nothing to do with multiplicative buckets though, Its all attack power, i have 11k base on my sorc and when mutipliers are up around 13-14k dps is fine, its not the highest but i can kill easiler on t100, what i can do is get shot.
And this doesnt include the mutipiers i have to burning damage or to burning instinct, and its near impossible to fight and monitor those, but i know those are going up also, just like Inner flames, if i take it it doesnt move attack power, right. But it does increase my pyromancy skills, i stay healty i cast hydra and hover over the skill i get say 3k damage, that goes down when i am unhealthy to default so we have multipliers like these in our build also,

I think most Vuln mutipliers are increased damage while vulnerable, so that gives high burst windows, but are if i was to make it perma i am not a fire sorc anymore i am ice or ice with one fire skill which would be like why?

So its all relative to what you build, I done know what my highest DMG number is since my build immobilises, groups and stuns all i see is a stack of overlapped numbers, lol

Highest i caught was over 2 mil at some point before 100. So yes mathmatically taking vuln give me more numbers, but that means taking more ice spells than fire, if i dont and just add frost nova and the vulnerable node i get nothing amazing just for hitting the bucket, in fact it slows me down because of CD on frost nova.

The game does the math, i can use it good enough to check which does more damage.

and nothing in game proves that wrong so far. Bigger attack power bigger damage, so Vul for the sake of it isn’t amazing, if i re-worked my board to frost and vuln damage sure, but i loose half if not more of the fire sorc build.

Why is that m well i would be a jack of all trades OP machine if i could add a decent chunk of Vulnerable to my build just by adding one Skill…

All meta Vuln proved is Vul stacking is Broken and OP. since it one shots or whatever.

I am simply looking at what the game is intended, and it wasn’t to have garbage stats to waste your time, that is called arrogance and flipping your noodle.

So they may be garbage right now, but once the game is not broken, they will be useful and used as intended.

So thats the angle i am looking at it from, intention, as OP skills is normal on release for these games, hell GW2 firebrand was OP meta for years, and people flipped a noodle over the nerfs, so i tend to look at the game as a whole and look for the why, not play meta math and call everything else garbage and the devs idiots.

I dont agree it works like that, i can build outside of this restriciction and it doesnt make sense,
Slop plus , crit , plus vul = damage, just doesnt make sense.
I can have 0 CC damage or 0 against elites or 100% in both if i am not fighting elites or doing CC, this is a 0 bucket.
You can easily take Slop plus crit plus nothing else everyone gets OP so unless a a class with modifiers that s just there.

How do i put it…
So i can have Slop crit , and thats all, but i can increase the mutipliers with the "slop"mutipliers that increase damage, so i on one hand i have frost nova with vuln and a X so that gives me a Higher damage burst thanks to 20% base , but my frost nova has a CD,
If i want to i can take Conjuration mastery and upkeep hydra, so i loose the 20% but i dont have a CD and i can add 2 CD conjuration to max the mutiplier, both options create similar results.
the monsters go splat quickly. and at a trade off of what you manage and upkeep time.
For some semblance of balance, fire also build DOT damage into this. and with burning instincts at a bonus 700% it burns quick.

26

I feel like these kinds of mechanics tend to hurt games a lot when they go too far.

Bloated math usually just leads to games where you one shot or be one shot.

It’s neat how you can go completely out of one genre and looks at another that does the same thing and the same thing literally happens lol.

For example, Diablo IV and Warframe both feature modding your gear for damage using big multipliers and enemy difficulty scaling that relies on bloated math.

In the end, both games actually get worse to play at end game because the math bloats out of control lol. Build diversity drops down because you need specific combos to do enough damage to avoid getting one shot continually.

I feel like math hurts gameplay when it’s not carefully controlled.

27

They don’t need to be removed, instead keep them EXACTLY THE WAY THEY ARE NOW except do this in addition:

Affixes and Talents/Nodes that boost Vulnerable or Crit damage are not multiplicative, they are additive.

Leave the base % of damage they do as multiplicative though.

That way this gives Vulnerable and Criticals their powerful nature without making it possible to overdo their damage numbers by abusing the crap out of exponential math.

28

You generally also arent getting the same affix from all your items.
If you could only get 5% Vuln per item affix, and maybe 5 item slots with Vuln on them, that would already drastically reduce the scaling.
It can still be perfectly exciting. The item isnt just that one affix.

Now I am not saying Vulnerable needs to go down to 5%, since it should just not be multiplicative with everything, which would already help a bunch.
But it could easily be capped at 10% or less per affix.
Similar for most other affixes too.

Definitely different for each build.
Not literally in the sense that with trillion builds there should be a trillion different items for those builds, of course, but that builds are spread out between using wildly different items/stats.

Basically nothing about itemization in an A-RPG should be class based. It should be build based.

There should be viable Int Barbs, Strength Sorcs, Bow Druids, Shield Rogues, and so on.
There should be builds that mostly use Rare items, others that mostly use unique items.

Yeah. Those items should never have existed.
D2 was quite good before 1.10. Not so much after.

29

Crit should stay. Maybe they could tweak it after weeding out all the garbage “if X then Y”

Vuln could be good but the way it works, basically have it or do null damage, sucks

30

Serious Question, How do you determine it is multiplicative with everything?

From in the game, or from you, not a youtube theory map.

All i see as a sorc is vulnerable triggers a mutiplier with exploit. other than that there is one passive when that mutiplies cold damage. So the only mutiplier you get for increased damage from ST and a glyph are those one is cold damage and one is up to 10% for 6 seconds, and i am sure there is aspect mutiplier.

I fail to see it multiply everything?

Its not garbage you just dont know how to use it, big difference…

31

You sound stupid. That would kill some classes entirely.

32

From the dmg numbers going up proportionally with the Vulnerable dmg %

33

You must have fast eye balls, to track them.

fair enough. When the monsters are not vulnerable too right?

Or you mean when the are vulnerable you get the for example sake 20% bonus on top?

34

You can just test with attacks and combat scenarios that are somewhat readable.

I mean, if I deal 1 million dmg on average when the enemy is not Vuln, and I have 100% Vuln dmg, I deal 2 million dmg on average when they are Vulnerable. All else being equal.

35

yeah that makes sense since you have 100% bonus damage, which is what they take giving you 2 mill.
Which makes sense for vulnerable builds.

I am finding however that, For example i take my fire build i get rid of hydra and TP
I put in Frost Nova and Frozen orb both with 3 Nodes, to get the Vulnerable.

I currently have 43% vulnerable damage. and put the exploit glyph in for a multiplier.

This was not a DPS upgrade for me. I am not seeing a nearly 50% gain in damage.

Ontop of that its slow and CD is crap.No joke i dont feel stronger doing this for this build.

I will happily make a before and after video, So we can see my results. I just want to understand it, idc who ends up right or wrong tbh.

but this is my experience.

36

Sorc can have a fairly high opportunity cost to get Vulnerable. Seems much easier for some classes, especially due to Exploit glyph.
Still, a DoT build who cant crit, and arent using Vuln, will be far far behind on dmg.

37

Well i am not sure about that, adding vuln gimps my protentional, Crit ofc i need crit it feeds burning instincts, which is useless without Crit. but vuln slows me down both on CD skills and Damage, even if per target had the protentional to hit higher, i am running in a circle wating to do vulnerable. anyway i record a before a after, we can all look and see, its the best way to learn.
Vulnerable is needed for frost yes for lightning maybe i have not built yet. For hybrids most likely, for fire, not needed imo.

i clear dungeons in 15-17 minutes i feel fine damage wise(not really timing just looking at recording timer), its my defense that needs a boost, i can get one shot too easily. but i cant afford rolls :frowning:

38

Well, you can “choose” to skip Crit dmg as much as you can skip Vuln.

But it is also fairly absurd that builds that cant crit are dependent on crit dmg. Harmonizing even the builds that were specifically designed not to use crit, into using crit like everyone else :frowning:
If crit wasnt so dominant, maybe that paragon node could have been a fun option. Now it should be changed to something else imo.

39

Apply the same to D4 only “Everyone is zooming around making everything invulnerable and crit-ing the room instantly”. But that’s where viable build diversity stops. D2 is an RPG where each class has a niche roll that helps progress to killing ubers, and their benefits stack.

D4 doesn’t encourage parties and each class has the same identity and play style: vulnerability and burst ASAP.

40

I find it ironic you say this.

I play a game from 2006 called conquer online. It’s a chinese ARPG that never was released main stream. It’s not on steam or any client. Only downloadable in web browser. It’s a windowed game.

Even in this game when you crit, your attack animation changes :rofl:

Guess this is lost technology though :rofl:

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