How much max fury do you need to make the switch to Ramaladni worth it? I have just an average rolled one with no GAs. I am level 87 wondering if I should just wait or switch now? Bash build with steel grasp, call of the ancients, challenging shout, IronSkin and War Cry.
Trying to use a build on icy veins. I leveled a ds dd barb to 100 and had a blast with him, but this guy already feels more powerfull.
You pretty much don’t want to use it with Bash sadly.
0.4x Max Ramas even with a GA on Max Fury will be outperformed with Legendary 1H with the Bash Cleave Weapon Temper since it is Multiplicative.
At 300 Fury (using Resource Elixir, Seligs, Masterworked and GA Max Fury, Max Fury Paragon), the 0.4, or x40% becomes x120%. Bash Cleave can be 105% before Masterworking which is only x15% less damage and works at 0 Fury just the same and does not require Seligs and absurd rolls.
This does not mean Ramas is worthless, it still scales quite well for some builds, just not Bash. Plus, if you really wanted without Ramas, you could use 2x 1H Mace bound to Bash for the Stun x20% Stun Damage and IAS while throwing on any Technique.
Thanks for the analysis, I am trying it now and wasn’t convinced it was worth it (and given that I’m only at 142 fury, it seems like it most certainly isn’t!)
I’m not even so concerned with totally maximizing the damage on Bash anyway, since I’m just really just using it with Paingorger’s Gauntlets as my way to cheese the game without actually having to play an unimaginably boring Bash build.
I must admit though, regardless of my thoughts on all that, I’m happy I arrived at this conclusion, since I always liked the concept of that item, but never had a way to leverage it before.
This isn’t accurate. Bash temper is a multiplier, but all of them on all weapons stack together as one multiplier, not separate. So missing 1 affix on a 1 hander is around a 17% dmg loss. You do also miss out on some stats, an aspect, and the heavy handed passive. You also have to invest in max fury, but can gain close to a 100% more multiplier. Bash doesn’t have a ton of great aspects so not much loss there anyway. Ramaladni’s can be very competitive for bash, if not better. Just cause popular streamers aren’t using it doesn’t mean they are right. (I mean they are running grandfather and stacking loads of crit damage for gushing wounds, which is objectively the wrong way to scale gushing wounds.)
How is that the wrong way to scale Gushing Wounds?
You mean subjectively it is the wrong way. Objectively, it performs exceptionally well to take Direct Damage, Convert it to Bleed, and use High Crit and High Crit Damage with a Grandfather. Considering Blizzard has put into the game numerous mechanics that convert Direct Damage to Bleed and vice versa, I think it is a safe assumption to say it is an intentional mechanic.
Like I said, you can use Ramas, but if a Legendary with Bash Cleave will almost always be better. Edgemasters Aspect alone gives you a .2 Ramas basically if you put it on the 1H without taking into account the Affixes and Bash Cleave Weapon Temper.
Using HoTA Overpower will give you another x30% modifier which synergizes well with Bash Cleave.
They are stacking nothing but crit damage using a grandfather to get like 6000%+ crit damage. But gushing wounds is a completely separate multiplier from typical additive damage. It basically makes bleeds scale off crit in the old way. So you are much better off scaling a decent amount of regular additive damage, and then adding on a decent amount of crit damage. Because of the hemorrhage glyph, vulnerable damage is best.
They’re combining crit, GW, and Vulnerable damage with Berserk Ripping. It’s clearly the most effective. GW with 80+ crit chance and 4k+ crit dmg is a giant multiplier.
Vulnerable and Hemmorhage is supplemental.
Rob’s saying a 10:1 ratio (10 crit dmg : 1 vuln) is optimal.
Vuln is essentially used to pump up the multiplicative bonus from Hemorrhage, which is the best multiplier (after Gushing Wounds) you can get for bleed. It being additive isn’t the reason to use it, it’s so you can get a fat multiplier. Same with DwB and Bloodrage, but Bloodrage is capped, so 300% DwB is optimal.
He’s at 5k crit dmg and 500 vuln.
I was under the impression that bash cleave was additive. Has it been confirmed to be multiplicative?
Yes it has which is why people are so butt hurt
oh thats painful, i just respecced thinking that rama was bis. also, I’ve been masterworking with being happy to hit the 25% bonus on the close / zerk stat. All this time I should be aiming to hit the 25% bonus on the bash stat…
I don’t know how Rob got that ratio but he’s wrong. Let’s use his numbers:
500% vuln
300% dwb
5000% crit
For example let make it easy and use 100 base dmg.
So our dmg is:
100 dmg * (1 + (500 + 300)/100) * (1 + 5000/100 * 1.4)
100 dmg * 9 * 71 = 63900 total dmg
Now lets add 200 vulnerable dmg and subtract equivalent crit dmg. Vuln to crit dmg is 1:1.25 respectively, so to get 200 vuln we have to lose 250 crit dmg, or 500 with grandfather. So our new numbers numbers are:
700% vuln
300% dwb
4500% crit
Our new dmg is:
100 dmg * (1 + (700 + 300)/100) * (1 + 4500/100 * 1.4)
100 dmg * 11 * 64 = 70400 total dmg
So as you can see, we get much more dmg by shifting more towards vulnerable dmg, and that’s not even counting hemorrhage, which skews it much more. (also if you aren’t at 100% crit chance crit dmg is even worse) The proper ratio is no where near 10:1.
Also, stacking vuln is for the additive damage. Gushing wounds is a separate multiplier and you need a strong base of additive damage to scale dmg with. Vuln is just the best source of additive because it also gives a bonus via hemorrhage. Same with DwB.
Ramas is still good and can outperform a Legendary with the Bash Affix if you have really high Fury Pool. Basically need Seligs, Resource Elixirs, and Max Fury where you can get it.
At 300 Fury, the .4 equates to x120% Damage. At 200 Fury it equates to x80% Damage. At 100 Fury it equates to x40% Fury.
Ramas only works for weapons bound to 1H, which means you are giving up Heavy Handed (x15% Crit Damage). A max rolled Bash Cleave (105% before Mastworking) is equivalent to a .4 Ramas with with about 265 Fury. Basically, you need AT LEAST 265 Fury and always Max Fury for Ramas to just be better than the Bash Cleave Temper.
This does not take into account a whole host of Aspects also you can slap on that 1H. When you look at it holistically, Ramas gets outshined pretty easily. Even just Edgemasters in place of it at 20% is equivalent of a .2 Ramas.
In the above example, you can have x105% Damage from Bash Cleave, x20% Damage based on Max Fury, x10% Skill Damage from Strength, +85% Crit Damage or +55% Vulnerable Damage or +85% Damage to Close or +105% Damage while WoTB, Max HP, and increased Attack Speed. You can easily find something that has at least one GA on it and can Mastercraft it.
Unfortunately, a lot of Uniques are garbage with Loot 2.0 explicitly because they did not change them despite being able to place (2) Tempers on an item. They really screwed up not at the very least allowing players to put a 5th Temper on Unique items. This would bring some parity to Unique items despite the RNG of finding ones with 2-3 GAs is borderline impossible. But hell, at least it would be worth a consideration…
Bash tempers are a multiplier but they all stack together as a single multiplier. If you are running bash on all other weapon slots, the bash temper on a 1 hander is only 20% more damage. You do have to account for the the lost aspect, extra stats, and loss of heavy handed, but it’s closer than you would think. Now if you’re running grandfather then the cost becomes much greater.
thanks. good info, now is there still hope for dual wield bash or is 2hand superior in dps?
Still hope. If you have a .4 Ramas, you can test it out. Frees up the 3 points in Heavy Handed you can allocate elsewhere like Duelist. With 250+ Fury, it will perform well. Won’t lose Wallop or Concussion.
1H Sword Expertise and 1H Mace Expertise are good and arguably better than 2H Mace. You gain the +Crit from the 1H.
The IAS of Dual Wield over a 2H Mace feels good.
You should invest in the Paragon Max Fury anyways and will probably be using Edgemasters. If you cannot find a godly GAIII Legendary 1H, it will be fine for Bash.
I think your calcs are off, brother.
The ratio of max crit to vuln on Rogue tempers (before masterworking) is 1.55, not 1.25.
85 vs 55.
You should always temper crit damage for that reason. But on gear it’s 40 vs 50 or 1:1.25 as I calculated. Same with gems. I temper crit everywhere except 2 pieces for dwb, and put vuln pretty much everywhere else.
can you confirm if you rolled the masterwork to ensure they land on bash the most?