You know you can sell legendary items, right? And the more you brick items the more demand there is for those juice bases with good rolls, good stats and greater affixes? A more forgiving tempering systems hits sellers right in the rmt profits. No one who just plays for FUN enjoys getting their one in a week super legendary get bricked.
how in the world do you connect those things in your mind?
d3 player probably?
Tempering is fine as it is, the major problem is the average diablo player with the mindset of being handed superpowers at one click, any decent player can compare this to LE crafting, where you brick items left and right, and poe where you have an uber complex system to craft things where in certain points, i.e. fracturing - corrupting can brick you item and al the effort - currency.
Here while simple, people complain, even the amount of mods is really low, easy to achieve in couple tries. then again people is entitled wanting to win just because they paid for the game, imagine sekiro made easier just because average players have a hard time with it, it would be a joke, good things in life and gaming are challenging, besides peoples opinion, how to create appropriate challenges, thatâs another discussion
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âŚwatch me try that.
Certainly part of it.
That should be the design goal imo. Not that you necessarily change your build to the items, but that you incorporate suboptimal items into your builds.
Now, tempering cant accomplish that alone, it would take a lot more effort from Blizzard to get there.
Imo, getting higher numbers on the same items are extremely boring. As is doing the same micro-content over and over (like the Pit) with slightly higher numbers.
The focus should be much more on which affixes you get on items, rather than whether those numbers are higher or lower. Two items with +3% crit or +6% crit are not meaningfully different from one another.
Greater Affixes is a useless system for the same reason. Just higher numbers. And so is Masterworking.
Tempering is the only interesting itemization system D4 got left. Only more reason that it should be protected.
(note, not saying Greater Affixes and Masterworking should be removed, their existence is fine, but they are not interesting itemization, they are just a mostly meaningless hamster wheel, they can not be a replacement for itemization)
Now, I dont think Tempering is a great system. It is just what the game currently has, and as long as that is the case, the tempering limit is important for protecting the loot hunt.
The much better solution would be to move affix generation back to when the item drops, rather than when you click an NPC in town.
At minimum, move one of the tempering affixes back to the item drop, and let us add one tempering affix at the blacksmith. Now that the RNG has been increased at the time of the item drop, the RNG at the blacksmith can be reduced; by removing the tempering limit.
Agreed. Move the RNG back to the drops.
Agreed. That is another issue. Blizzard basically split up a bunch of affixes âartificiallyâ so you had something to roll between.
If these affixes were part of the item drop, many of the affixes could be merged. Making it that much harder to get an item you cant use.
Blizzard simply moved the RNG from where it makes sense, where it makes itemization more interesting, and added it to an NPC in town, where they had to compensate for the loss of drop RNG, by adding unnecessary new affixes, and a limit that frustrates players (but again, is REQUIRED as long as tempering happens at the blacksmith).
rng is not always random.
it depends if the programming is done well. and in the case of tempering, the rng is crap.
when out of three temper-possibilities, one comes up five times in a row, rng is not programmed well. and thatâs what we talk about. bad programming.
good rng would offer at least three different options out of five tries.
bad rng doesnât care about that. all five tries can be the same option.
the days blizz programmed well - âfor a great player experienceâ - are long over (just look at what you play: the original d3-engine). now itâs all for the $hareholder$âŚ
Completely subjective. Itâs not fun for you, doesnât mean itâs not fun for others. Some people would love to pick and choose their own affixes. Now itâll never happen, but doesnât mean people donât sit at the end of both spectrums.
Again another giant leap here. Youâre comparing hypotheticals with current reality, and itâs also highly subjective. I have no doubt some people (not all) would love to just farm mats and craft whatever they want with whatever stats they want.
The better question would be is this what the devs want? Absolutely not. Regardless of all the complaining about tempering, I highly doubt theyâll ever make it to where you can just pick and choose whatever affix you want on a piece of gear. There will always be an element of randomness.
Now giving more attempts doesnât change this. It just makes it easier at a cost Iâm sure they would implement IF they decide to go down this route. Just like Enchanting and Masterworking.
Iâm not agreeing or disagreeing with either side here, but Iâve seen these leaps in logic that are just way out in left field. Itâs not about where a change like this could potentially lead, itâs about the enjoyment each player will have IF they decided to make a change to the amount of reroll attempts.
Thereâs also the factor that itâs a choice to play the reroll game regardless of what system it is. If youâre more strict in your gameplay and wonât reroll anything out of general principle, more power to you. Or maybe you put limits on how any times you can reroll. Itâs no different than choosing one skill over another.
Doesnât mean you wonât feel more compelled to do so, but itâs still a matter of choice. Oddly enough they have a lot of choices in terms of how you play.
why is there a cap i wonder. Cant they just make it like enchanting with increasing the cost?
Well, enchanting doesnt have increasing cost anymore, as it was removed.
A tempering reset cost would likely go the same route over time.
Just keep the limit, instead of caving more and more, for once.
It does not affect me much as I never chase a perfect triple Greater Affix gear to Temper. I just focus on the objective of the game I am going to achieve. I just need a single GA item to have a successful Tempering and throw away all failed Temper, doesnât matter how many GA it has. It is not to hard achieve this as single GA item is very common. A lot of time double or triple GA item will not help me much to achieve my game objective, as I only rely on single offensive affix from a gear most of the time. From the perspective of a sorc player who already completed 100+ PIT 
profane innovation made me quit the game for now, no joke lol. That manual is cancer
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i mean you dont need to min max for a build to function
but the thing is we are only doing tempering to min max, and that defeat the purpose
realistically you can just slap a piece of gear with proper aspect and it should do just fine for most area of the game minus a few like high level pit
âThereâs a hypothetical audience for thatâ isnât a strong counter argument. All we can do is talk about what makes for a good game / system from our own points of view. You arenât speaking for the collective desire of all D4 players, and claiming that there might be someone who disagrees with me is irrelevant to my argument.
I donât think we should craft our critiques around what we think the devs want.
Giving unlimited rerolls would effectively allow you to just choose you affixes. It wouldnât even take infinite rolls, even tripling them would likely make it trivial to get the exact affixes you want and ensure decent rolls on them. No one is talking about them literally creating a system with no RNG, we are talking about simplifying tempering to the point where it is just the same as imprinting.
There is a fundamental difference between masterworking/enchanting and tempering. The first two are simply RNG-based cost obfuscation that get your ability to enhance an item, whereas tempering is an extension of the drop system that determines what the item is fundamentally capable of.
You are misinterpreting the argument. It isnât a slippery slope argument. Dramatically increasing the number of rerolls would already change the system from being an extension of the drops to yet another upgrade system you use to edit the item into exactly what you want.
I donât understand why people think itâs useful to point out that players could impose their own restrictions. In a version with infinite skill points and paragon points, where you can add any affix with any roll onto every item, you could always roll some dice on your desktop to determine what items you got and choose whatever number of skill points and paragons you thought were fair. That doesnât mean the game would be good. People can self-impose hardcore mode too, yet it makes the game better to have the game enforce it.
How about this: they can add a flag at character creation for âcreative modeâ and then you get no loot or XP and can fully design your character and items how you want, but you get no achievements or account-wide progress and canât play gauntlet or trade with anyone. There, tempering solved! Iâm sure some people would love to play that mode.
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Personally Iâd rather have Tempering removed and just get a random stat on gear instead. Itâs a great concept but thereâs nothing like getting an item and being excited only to realize youâre probably going to brick it with a garbage affix.
There are some ways to improve it though,
-reduce the amount of affixes you can get
-No repeat affixes until you cycle through the available affixes
- increase the roll chances to 10 instead of 5
So weâre in agreement. Your hypothetical argument is the exact same thing.
I tend to base my arguments off of what theyâve said in interviews, campfires, tweets, live streams, etc. Now this doesnât mean they wonât change their minds based off feedback, but it gives solid grounds for an argument based off what theyâve said.
Is it 100% accurate? Absolutely not, but itâs more concrete than subjective views on how people think the system should work based off their own personal bias. Thereâs thousands of suggestions on these boards alone of what the devs should do and how to make the game better. All highly subjective, including my own.
You must be a huge advocate against enchanting and masterwork resetting then. Now while I agree to an extent there will still be a cost involved. Itâs still a choice though.
Because itâs already in the game? You choose one skill over another for a reason. You choose where to place your paragon points, what glyphs to use, what boards to attach, etc. You choose what affixes will be most beneficial to your build. All of these are typically based on research and experimentation, but the option is there.
Some people like to use guides, others donât, itâs still an option. People set their own restrictions on that, this would be no different.
Again, highly subjective. Some people feel it would make the game better with hard rules in place, thatâs all you can say. Now I agree with you, but doesnât mean everyone else does.
Actually agreed. I have no doubt some people would love that system. I personally wouldnât, but it wouldnât bother me if the option was in the game. My own enjoyment of the game isnât based on the options people will choose to use or not use. I donât honestly care what other people do within the game given the choices available to them.
Itâs also why Iâm always a huge advocate of adding choices. For example one of the running ideas around the forum is adding in the option to replay the campaign on any difficulty setting. I would never use this option myself, but I have no problems with it being in the game.
In my opinion, yeah, those are also bad.
Masterworking is a meaningless system currently. If it could not be reset, at least it would matter. Would still not be a good system, merely less bad.
So true.
Heck, the devs donât know what they want either, so it wouldnât really matter.
Yep. A pet peeve of mine.
Pretend-play is not relevant.
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No, my argument is about what I think is fun in games. I actually exist and play this game, so I am not a hypothetical audience.
I donât see how itâs useful for you to tell us what you believe the devs want when we are discussing what would make a system good or bad. The devs change what they want based on what the players react to and how they react. For example, when the game launched, the devs had a fairly different vision for progression than they do now, as Joe P discussed in his interviews with streamers recently.
No it isnât. Explaining what makes games of this sort fun to you is far more concrete than hypotheses about what the devs want.
And all valuable to the devs as they try to figure out which solutions will work best for the most people.
Masterworking has no effect on which affixes you get. I do think capping the enchanting cost was a bad idea; I wanted them to go the other way and give each item a limited number of rerolls, but they did that with tempering at the same time as capping enchanting costs, so we didnât totally lose the limited-reroll part of the system.
The current balance on enchanting still achieves one of the goals I would have for tempering: there are so many affixes, some of them are far more common than others, and gold is valuable enough that you often enchant into something that is âgood enoughâ and then stop because the cost to get something better is too high. I think the system would be better, though, if they merged it with tempering, so that items dropped with random affixes and then tempering manuals allowed you a limited number of attempts to correct 2-3 of the affix slots using manuals tuned toward specific builds (and designed so that the worst outcome was still an enhancement over an irrelevant affix from the dropped item).
The reason they wonât do this is that they are probably building an auction house and they want to ensure that thereâs a true RNG system post-purchase to avoid the D3 auction house where it made the rest of the game trivial.
None of these are examples of people restricting themselves from using power that is available. Even the example of using guides or not using them is not an example of people restricting themselves from using power, only of people wanting to figure out the puzzle for themselves.
It isnât highly subjective when you donât even have an example of someone who disagrees. Again, what is your purpose in making claims like this? Do you think that there is no such thing as a good game mechanic? Like literally every aspect of the game could theoretically have someone somewhere who doesnât like it. So therefore all mechanics are equally bad? Just stop making this argument. Itâs a useless distraction.
If they added the creative mode I described, would you then tell everyone who disagreed with a mechanic in the regular game to just go play creative mode and self-impose all the other mechanics? Do you think thatâs a good experience?
So weâre basically in agreement across the board. Everything weâve been talking about, from the OP to the people putting in their own opinions is all subjective. The devs may choose to change things based on all the feedback. Some people will like it, others wonât.
This is all Iâve been saying from the start.
Why would I tell them that? Itâs an odd conclusion to jump to. I donât tell anyone what to do I make sure they realize there are many options to use. If these options donât interest them, by all means leave your feedback in hopes that things will change, or donât, doesnât matter to me.
Which some people are doing for and against various systems in the game currently, yourself included. Now I base my rebuttals off of what the devs have said to date, but by no means does that prove they will never budge on the subject.
My responses are to get people to see other sides, not to prove anyone right or wrong, or to tell people what to do. When I say you have an option to use the systems within the game, thatâs quite literally all Iâm saying.
Iâm not telling you to use the systems or not use the systems, Iâm saying the option is there for you to make the decision. No one but you can make that decision.
I limit myself to how often I will use enchanting on an item. Thatâs a personal choice. The game allows me to enchant as many times as I want, I choose not to. Same with masterworking.
If tempering allowed this same amount of freedom, it honestly wouldnât bother me. It also wouldnât bother me if they quite literally changed nothing about tempering. Whether or not it will make the game better or worse because of their decision is up to each individual player though.
So someone makes a post explaining some issue they have with the game and making a suggestion to improve it. Someone else says that the current system is better without the suggested fix. Your response is that everything is subjective and the devs will ultimately decide. Thanks, you are adding a lot to the discussion.
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Itâs really simple, as you use the item it should rebuild itâs tempering potential. Should be hotfixed in.