In Raxx’s interview with Joe P and Adam J he asked about the Skill Tree and whether there were any plans to “expand” on it. The answer was basically that they don’t want D4 to turn into POE and that we’d be surprised at how many new players are already making mistakes with the Skill Tree.
I see that first hand when I play with my wife and we both spend forever looking through all the different nodes, trying to figure out what it all means in relation to our gear and legendary affixes. Many of the synergies feel contrived and intentionally scattered about, as if the Skill Tree is trying to be an easter egg hunt rather than something we can go to and feel “leveled up”.
Imo, a much more satisfying and clarifying experience would be to simply let the Skill Tree power up my character’s, you know, skills. I’m not talking about damage multipliers, crit chance or applying vulnerable. I’m talking about allowing my Rogue’s Rapid Fire skill to fire more rapidly with each point I add to the skill, or my Wizard’s inferno to split into two or three waves if I add enough points. On the next node, I can choose between arrows that pierce or arrows that ricochet for my Rogue, and walking inferno or blast wave inferno for my Wiz, etc.
This type of skill reward is so simple and straight forward, and yet so incredibly clear, tangible, and satisfying for the player that I’m sincerely confused as to why the Diablo franchise has veered so far away from it. Diablo 2 did it pretty well but had it’s problems. Diablo 3 had “Skills on Wheels” which I personally hated, and Diablo 4 brought skill points back in the form of an underwhelming riddle.
I would love to hear how the community feels about the D4 Skill Tree, and what you think would make it better. I would also love to hear the devs discuss why a system like the one I described above would or wouldn’t work in D4.
It’s probably a no win situation for Blizzard when it comes to skill trees.
I also play with people that make obvious mistakes with the skill tree they are only obvious to someone that plays these games regularly.
I personally think they should merge the skill tree and paragon system into one. However, at the same time keep the skill tree simple in that it’s obvious how to progress through it.
For example, if you are wanting to build a fire Sorc it should be very obvious how to progress through the skill tree and how various interactions work. That doesn’t mean it will be ‘easy’ to fully optimise though, just that it helps newer players achieve what they want.
The whole builder spender situation could also be reworked.
Give each skill its own skill tree.
It gives more options and depth to each skill, but by splitting them into different trees, it also removes a lot of the confusion for new players, since they can look at each skill tree as separate entities, with their own pool of points. They wont need too consider how to spread out the skill points across one massive skill tree.
So basically a win/win design choice in most circumstances (albeit some skill point balancing is of course lost, exactly because you don’t need to balance points between offensive and defensive skills).
Move the passives into its on system. Could just be a list of passives to put points into.
OR move the passives to the paragon boards. Spreading them out as “minor legendary nodes” or something. Each board could have maybe 3-4 such nodes. Same passive could be on multiple boards, to offer more paths to the same things.
As for making obvious mistakes. This feels like Blizzard ignoring the benefit of tutorials. Something D4 dont have much of at all.
They could easily have tutorials with examples of how to match up skills in basic ways, like generators/spenders, buffs/debuffs/ultimates etc. maybe coupled with some fights to show the different types of combos in action.
I think we all know deep down that no matter what is done with the skill tree there will be people who like it and people who hate it. I personally use one of the guides as a starting point when creating my skill tree, but in every season so far, I have made changes to reflect my playing style and gear I have accumulated. I see no need to over-think things.
With the guides you can compare what is used and what is not used and make changes as you feel the need.
Current skill tree is fine as is. It sets up the baseline of what there is to expect. If anything, I think we could use more breadth of skills in the tree to give more build varieties.
If all the more interesting build strengthening or mechanic changing things are directly added into the tree, it kinda takes away the excitement in early to mid game when you find a good aspect because now everything will come guaranteed in the tree. As long as they don’t nerf legendary aspect drop rate to the ground, current system keeps me more on my toes.
The existing system also helps give a lot more liberty in how to customize your build because everything is a separate aspect; you don’t really need to unlock anything else first other than the skill.
That is simply my take, would rather want to see Runes, Runewords, or any advanced sockets system in general
Think drops/loot have a better chance to give moments of surprise than just clicking on a node
Also, if Skill Trees were the “end all be all” LE would’ve been the best game in the genre which is not the case, that alone should tell us something tbh
i think speeding up the game so much is unraveling nearly part of the game that they built. Skill tree to 50 and paragon from 50 to 100 made sense in S0. Come S4 it doesn’t seem to make as much sense anymore. 50 used to take awhile to get to and now it doesn’t, so having the complexity come so soon that they don’t want new players to have to wade through the skill tree with seems to clash to me.
It needs a complete overhaul with the expansion imo, where the skill tree is expanded to max level, and paragon is post 100. Not exactly like D3, and not with character levels, but just the 50-100 paragon shifted out. That would let the skill tree grow.
Some of the problem with putting too much in skill tree is, its not something that’s usually touched when it comes to balance like you can more easily with gear. LE’s skill tree is cool, but at the same time there’s a lot of worthless stuff there, that isn’t getting changed or updated anytime soon.
I am not of the opinion that Skill Trees are the be all and end all, however, Last Epoch is better than DIV to me.
DIV needs much more depth to its skill tree (more skill choices and growth), the paragon board revamped, the glyph system to be revamped, as well as its dungeon system completely redone. There are other, minor things, that also need to be fixed, but those are my two.
Imagine say 3 seasons from now all Core skills are gonna have 4-5 Aspects (or at least a couple Temper options), isn’t that the same thing as a “sudo” skill tree ?
Uniques also add a “second tier” to skill modifications, the only 2 things that we lack in terms of skill flexibility are:
1 - Usage (CD instead of Cost, HP instead of CD, e.t.c.)
2 - Secondary effect upgrade (more Fortify generated instead of more Damage on Bash for example)
Do you really need skill tree for that ?
Like I don’t see a problem that a Skill Tree will fix without necessarily a much lesser system able to do those things tbh
I’m not saying it’s not improvement, but when it comes to D4 I think there are better ways (much less costly and much more effective) to do that
All this work to achieve what ?, turn D4 into something else ?, do you like the game, do you like how it works ?
Do you like how Aspects work ?
Do you like how mechanics work as upgrades to a skill ? (some skills have Vulnerable, others Overpower, others LH, e.t.c.)
Do you like how Uniques alternate a skill (Dolmen Stone, Bloodless Scream, Word of Hakan, e.t.c.)
Like at least let’s be honest and answer THAT, cause by the sound of it sounds like you don’t even like what the core of the game is like ATM
The skill tree is fine as it is. Skill functionality should be widened from tempering system. Tempering affixes should be as comprehensive as possible. Skill point allocations should always weigh between active and passive skills. Different passive skills should be buffed significantly for competition/diversity. There shouldn’t be a BiS choice but what style you wish the build is for.
Rend has a small radius. Tempering effect could be rend now does splash damage at 25 yards. This can stack with 100% areas effect to be 50 yard, which is 1 screen worth of Mobs. Mechanics like these should be from temperings.
Aspects should work “in addition” to the skill tree, not “be” the skill tree. Itemization should not be your skill tree, and currently that is how aspects act. All of the “neat” effects from skills are on aspects, and they themselves have no way to customize them to make them different from anyone else that uses the same ones. As well, they are very limited in number. I like Aspects in theory, but they dhould be more “generic” affecting anybody’s skills rather than specific to skills.
The paragon board and glyph system are more than bloated with micro-growth, which is entirely unexciting, which makes half of your character growth (more than half if you look at time spent leveling honestly), full of garbage levels where you feel no different.
The mechanics affecting skills are both not varied enough, don’t have nearly enough growth within them, and there are not enough skills to choose a build from. And I do not like Uniques currently affecting skills, as again, there should be more of those effects you choose yourself, not reliant on an unreliable drop. They also need to fix the entire resource system.
Currently I do not like the core of the game, no, and want more depth to it.
Can’t they add another extra system that can provide more individualization ? (say skill sockets or skill orbs, just an example), why do we need to put everything in that one big/giant “monolith” of a system ?, when 3 smaller ones can do the job not just fine but also better (skill trees are “stiff” and have a finite amount of outcomes, combination of Aspects, Tempers, and something else - not in game yet but will be with time - can provide more outcomes )
Yes, the game lacks something, but that doesn’t mean Skill Trees are the answer
One is character based, another is item based. They don’t offer the same sense of character building.
Imo, basically all legendary and unique affixes that alter individual skills should be moved to the skill tree. The iteem affixes should be broad, across skills and classes.
That would improve the skill trees, but also the itemization, by making items more useful for everyone, instead of these hyper specialized things meant for a few builds.
Then get rid of “Smart loot”. And make all classes able to use all item types with varying efficiency.
A suggestion someone else had, which I think is great, is to add gems system where you can socket skill for various effects.
I think this would be a good compromise that leaves the system basically easy and as the players continue to invest the system becomes more layered and complex.
The Skill Tree is just about as simple as you can get. How people can greatly mess up is astounding, especially if you spend any time planning your build. To say the reason they do not want to expand on it is to not make it overly complex like PoE and not acknowledge how trash backwards the Paragon system is especially for new players is hilarious.
The Paragon system is so poorly implemented. All Blizzard did was instead of allowing you to place Attribute points per level starting off and until you hit cap was delay that until Level 50. These minor increases to attributes you mostly don’t care much about except as a means to a graphic train-wreck end to get to either a Glyph spot or Legendary power.
Along the way, Blizzard has taken what is normally either on gear or implemented as Passive Skills these “Magic” and “Rare” nodes. They took equipment off having Reqs for the most part and slapped them on these instead (lol). Many of these do not provide much power on their own so you don’t feel much progression until you invest 12+ points on a Board but really, it is lopsided when you get a Glyph and Legendary power the Power Creep is TREMENDOUS.
Glyphs are…uh…interesting and not in a good way. They do not feel good to level up but have enormous power. Some of these grant effects that literally make or break your character - not really provide specialization. Legendary Nodes similar are basically Aspects they decided to slap on Boards because the Aspect system is also bad and the budget economy for items is becoming an increasing problem as we move forward.
Only having a Skill Tree would simplify the hell out of the game and planning while providing far more control over Specialization in build planning.
That would be me lol, and yes, I do think that less redundancy is a valid goal so that is one of the ways to achieve that
Besides it would be fun for players to “juggle” around to find what their best options are (and even at times adjust just by swapping them)
Do I want the 15% extra LH on my Meteor or on a Basic skill like Spark
Do I want to make my Blizzard be an Ultimate with 30 sec. CD and 7 sec. duration, or do that Firewall
Perhaps want to reduce Deep Freeze in radius and duration but cast it more often (or reverse, make Ice armor an Ult with 7-8 sec. duration)
Do I want to add a Crit damage increase on my Ball Lightning or on Meteor
Do I wanna make my Fireball a basic skill
Do I want to make my Firewall a basic skill that “ticks” mana per second
e.t.c.
Think that is a nice way to achieve individuality of performance, and even act as a system of early surprise (oh, and it’s reverse b.t.w., you put the gem (well, skill Orb) ON a skill to add an effect, or alter some of it’s stats)
