Feedback: After 7 Seasons

After trying to fill out a recent survey from Blizzard, I closed out of it due to many of the questions not really representing my feelings on the current state of the game, nor having enough characters to truly write out a response. So this will serve as my feedback, much of what will probably account for naught due to the fact we are getting a Roadmap before season 8 for the next few seasons, probably taking us to the second expansion.

D4 has been an enjoyable enough game to play each season, and see the evolution since release. However, I do feel it’s kind of a mess in areas. I’d like to highlight three: 1) Seasonal Flow/Endgame, 2) Original game systems not keeping up to the standards of evolved game. 3 )Itemization.

Seasonal Flow/Endgame:
I feel like the seasonal flow and endgame are at odds with each other, and the endgame activities themselves are at odd with each other and do not have the best of flow. Endgame flow is better now than at launch, but feels stagnant in terms of; to get A, do 1, to get C, do D, etc.

For seasonal, the seasonal zones take me out of doing the endgame in order to interact with the seasonal mechanic. Seasons were presented to take a page out of the current state of Diablo 3’s seasons book; a season specific theme/mechanic with a storyline played in game as opposed to flavor text in the patch notes. S1 did this aspect well, despite being one of the weaker seasons. With S1, like with D3, I could interact with fighting malignant and getting the hearts in most content (at least, once they patched the Wrathful in a good state). Season 2 introduced the Seasonal Helltide Zone, which became the best place to farm the blood to level powers, but I could also still find Blood Fountains in Dungeons to give a bunch. Season 5 allowed Elites killed anywhere to give reputation for the seasonal reward board. S6 forced us to use consumable potions on a timer to farm reputation, which worked terribly until they patched it. With S7, we are relegated to the Seasonal Zone/Dungeons to farm Rot for purchasing and leveling the majority of the season powers.

Unlike Diablo 3, Seasons in D4 have generally been gated to a Seasonal Helltide, invoking a grind that pulls you away from the other grinds you need to push into the endgame systems and higher difficulties. With D3, I can do most content and interact with the theme, such as the current D3 theme where the Crucibles required to get your season powers can drop anywhere. I’m near Paragon 220 this season, with two characters and 9 Legendary Glyphs and I have not touched Kurast Undercity, nor have done Helltide beyond Season Journey objectives.

This leads into the next issue, flow of endgame. Pits are fine, though not as good as Greater Rifts in D3 and the Map Selection variety is lacking (better since S6 though adding some Nahantu dungeon maps). NMDs are decent for the Mats farming, with Hordes as an alternative, but now feel less rewarding for fighting the boss. Kurast Undercity serves as a multi farm function, but feels more annoying to do for uniques/mythics than simply farming the boss mats and running Lairs. Also, without another scaling activity, this leaves only the Pits for pushing Paragon as well as the sole Glyph leveling activity.

I don’t have anything necessarily concrete with this, but Diablo 3, despite having less endgame activities, has a better flow. Even Diablo 2, with it’s pretty much non-existent endgame, has a better flow. With D3’s current state, you Bounty for the Season Journey, get your needed caches (RRoG, Gloves of Worship, etc), and while you are doing those, you can farm the keys for Ubers, do Visions to get mats, item drops, bounty mats, and GR Keys. You can do normal Rifts for the same things as Visions. Open world can spawn portals to Cow Level, Greed’s Domain, or Pony Level. Multiple things to farm that flow well into each other to ultimately farm and Push Greater Rifts, leveling your gems. With D2, monsters have loot pools and Treasure Classes based on Area Levels, and you can target types of items based on this, such as Nightmare Andariel for SoJ. D2R adds to the mix with Terror Zones, giving some scaling based off of character level.

  1. OG Systems behind:
    D4 has an issue of original game designs not catching up with the current game designs. While this is better since expansion, there is still work than needs to be done. D2 had the same problem as well when the game evolved into 1.10 and beyond (even though D2R 2.4 did some work to improve the issues), such as the issue of being forced to choose between multiple elements and doing crappy damage or doing good damage but having to deal with immune skipping/merc killing immunes due to synergies, which also left behind many OG skills for only niche purposes (like PvP). And example of what I mean by this, is the Paladin Skill Fist of the Heavens. Originally, this skill could be leveled as an aid to killing Physical Immunes for a Melee Pally, or as a means to kill Oblivion Knights while under the effect of Iron Maiden. With synergies, this skill no longer had room to be leveled, and due to it’s limited targets it could damage, was hard to build a spec for.

In terms of D4, The Paragon Boards and Glyphs no longer serve the original purpose of the launch game. These systems functioned under the premise of a slower paced character specific leveling journey, which we no longer have. These systems were never perfect, even for the original purpose. Pathing through the boards is tedious, and due to build guilds, is mostly a solved puzzle for the major meta builds. I preferred the simplicity of D3’s Paragon, despite the fact that after 800, your efficient choice was just to dump points into main stat. The Glyphs requiring specific stat pathing in a range around it was also never good, but due to the slower pace of the game, you could get by with a weaker glpyh meant for utility until you leveled your powerful ones to 15. Now, you are left with a bunch of glyphs that generally remain useless, many not even catching up to mechanics changing (such as Necro minions getting full stats instead of partial, leaving the secondary bonus on the minion glyphs with armor and resistances, sort of useless).

With Paragon being shared now, the current glyph system not being universal is a pain point for alts. With D3, Legendary Gems could be shared, in D4, there is no such system for sharing glyphs, despite many of them being the same across each class. Not only that, but you have to collect them all on the alt, despite being able to path Paragon through 5 boards if you had already leveled it that high, then they don’t even always drop from the source you level them in like the GRs in D3. This of course, can be cheesed by leveling alts with caches, which will drop the glyphs.

Another aspect I feel no longer serves the original purpose, is skills and how builds function. D4 was built under the premise of a slower paced journey, with more methodical action combat. Hence, why it retains the builder/spender system of D3, as well as an increased focus on Cooldown and rotational based skills. With having higher monster density, and now a more current D3 based progression speed, it would be nice to have some more builds not relegated to CD spam and short burst duration buff/utility CDs. In D2, if I invested in Shout Skills and their synergies, they had a meaningful duration. In D4, I get a couple seconds more max in an already short duration for full investment. Even in D3, Barb shout duration was more meaningful. I’m not saying CD abilities are bad, but I’d like to see more playstyles that are not centered around them or short burst skill. There has been some work over the seasons on this, but not enough to really engage me to play more than a couple of characters a season; I’d really love to see a D4 Barbarian closer to the D3 WW Barb with BK Swords or a D2 Strafe Amazon, or a D2 Zeal Paladin, etc.

  1. Itemization:
    Itemization in D4 is a mess. D2 is the GOAT in this regard (despite the flaws of runewords overtaking it since 1.10), and D3 is notorious for the sets. I almost prefer the original launch itemization we had for D4 compared to what we have now. There are a bloat of useless legendary powers as well as useless uniques already in the game. There are too many multipliers is a huge issue, and the other is that items are more build defining than they are build empowering. D3 had this issue, but Kanai’s Cube allowed for a mix of multiple set pieces and legendary powers to create builds; in D4, we’re stuck taking multiplier legendary powers and multiplier uniques to make builds, and empower them through masterworking and tempering. Even D4 Runewords lean too much into multipliers for some builds. Example, I was contemplating a WW Barb this season using the two Barb Shout runes to automate my shouts for my buffs as well as combining with Vocalized Empowerment for Fury Sustain, but I would have to give up Quakes, and without a viable alternative for the multiplier bonuses you get with quakes unless I used Ground Stomp to create them (which would go against the reason of the shout runes), I abandoned the idea.

Another issue D4 shares with D3 is the loot hunt aspect revolves around simply getting higher legendary affixes and higher rolls of the same gear you already are wearing for your build. Primals with D3, and D4 has Mythics and Greater Affixes. D2 on the other hand, had Jewels and charms, as well as runes with base bonuses outside of runewords to find.

Anyways, long read, but really wanted to put this to words in feedback.

9 Likes

As a Fellow writer of blocks of text I gave this +1 without reading it just for effort.

Will await IGGIs cliffnotes to respond further.

5 Likes

Lol. Going to link this to Pez and Rod in a moment on X, but mostly this wall of paragraphs was for the CMs that go through the forums. It was fun writing this up though, heh.

Nice feedback, maybe you could add a summary paragraph with the main ideas in two sentences :slight_smile: Like an “abstract” of thesis :slight_smile: That is said, I’ve read it, I don’t have much to add. It’s nice to compare with D2 and D3. I think your main idea is there’s a flow issue, I agree, we are doing only pits over pits for paragon glyphes and a bit of NMs dungeons for obducite. Sometime a bit of Helltides and the season events of course, also the world bosses just for fun.

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Thanks, I’m not great with TLDRs, so I’ll leave it at that. But yeah, as a longtime fan of the franchise, I wanted to put into perspective the issues of the game compared to the other big two. I do think that D2 has overall been the best game of the franchise, but has served as a terrible seasonal game whether speaking of the OG or D2R. D3 is the most hype for me, but the shortest lived (although really, last couple of times I tried to play a D2R season, I got bored before a week), and D4 has a longer tail than D3 seasons, but more frustrating due to flow and build playstyles.

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Tl;Dr

Going to focus on three main issues:

  1. Seasonal Flow/Endgame
  2. Original Game Systems
  3. Itemization

1) Seasonal Flow/Endgame
  • Seasonal mechanics and endgame content don’t flow well by themselves.
     
  • Seasonal themes often feel disconnected from endgame progression.
     
  • S1 and S2 introduced solid themes (Malignant Hearts, Helltide Zones), but later seasons feel more grindy and restrictive.
     
  • Endgame activities (like Pits, NMDs, Kurast Undercity) lack variety and rewarding progression.
     
  • D4 endgame feels more linear and less interconnected than D3’s smaller amount of endgame content.

2) Original Game Systems Falling Behind
  • Paragon Boards and Glyphs don’t evolve with the game’s faster progression speed.
     
  • Paragon Boards are tedious, and Glyphs are now less useful with current mechanics.
    • Necro minions now get full stats so the secondary bonus on minion glyph adding armor and resistances is all but useless.
       
  • Paragon being shared is good but glyphs are not, making it a pain for alts.
     
  • Skills and builds feel limited, especially with cooldowns and rotational based skills.

3) Itemization Issues
  • D4’s itemization feels messy and lacks depth.
     
  • Too many multipliers, with items focusing more on build empowerment than enabling unique builds.
     
  • Legendary powers and item rolls dominate builds, reducing variety.
     
  • D3’s Kanai’s Cube and D2’s runewords were more versatile; D4’s system lacks this variety.
     
  • Loot hunt in D4 revolves around higher rolls, which feels less satisfying than D2’s charms, jewels, and runewords.

Summary

Diablo 4 is fun, but there are definitely some issues. The seasonal flow feels disconnected from the endgame, and the Paragon Boards with Glyphs don’t keep up with the faster pace of the game. Itemization is a mess, with too many multipliers and not enough variety to make builds feel unique. Endgame content feels repetitive, and the grind can get a bit stale. Overall, the game’s systems haven’t really evolved to match the faster pace, and it’s holding back the experience.

5 Likes

I think you captured the essence of what I was saying. Didn’t expect how nice you made it, so thanks!

2 Likes

If there’s anything inaccurate let me know. You went a bit more into detail than what the Tl;dr shows, but thats by design of course. If you feel something should be iterated more I’ll add it in. I try to be as thorough as I can with Tl;Dr’s.

I think it sums it up pretty well. The only point where we may have differed was on the itemization with build empowerment, but I feel the way you had it, hit my overall feelings better, especially in my example of the Quake with Whirlwind on the Barb. Like I’m fine with changing the function of a skill to make a build unique, but the multipliers was the biggest issue that support it, which limits your options with the skill you want to build around.

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My biggest issues has been the flow for sure. I think you highlighted its issues well here.

I can’t stand the idea that I have to decide which distinct zone or activity I have to focus on because it doesn’t tie into anything else. I think seasonal content should alter core gameplay, and maybe have specific zones for farming. It would have been nice to see NMDs have parts of the root hold inside of it. That way I don’t have to pick between two totally distinct experiences where both only serve one function.

I cant really disagree with any of that.

OP, thank you for the thoughtful, intelligent feedback which is so rare in these parts.

Summary response from Blizzard:

Thank you for your feedback, we are listening. Buy more cosmetics. :hamster: :popcorn:

You forgot to add a fourth: SORCERER WORTHLESSNESS

I’d like to see Diablo 4 stand on its own, and although I’d like to see D2 itemization I don’t think that will ever happen.