that enchanting is bugged doesnt automaticly mean tempering is too. Im still talking about tempering, not enchanting. And so far chances are pretty equal here. all in a margin of errors. no stat had like super low chances. appearing.
RNG lottery is only fun when it’s not using an item that may have taken dozens of hours to farm. Sure, maybe you could buy a new one, but that’s just as unfun.
Main point is, the lack of control sucks. I wouldn’t want to spend hours trying to find that item again, be it drop or market. It may not even exist anywhere else.
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Unfun is being done with a season in 1-2 days. We actually have something to chase. Mind you it should be from loot drops but thats not what blizzard created.
The issue is if we were able to roll anything we wanted whenever we wanted there is no point in even having gear in the game.
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No amount of RNG is going to stop that from happening lol. It’s better to allow the casual crowd to actually interact with it more regularly.
But it’s also why there are varied suggestions. It needs some degree of control or it will just keep most people from interacting with it. Heck, most people probably won’t bother to use it until they do hit WT4, as it’s a waste of materials otherwise.
It should be possible to get the stat you want without RNG being able to screw you out of time and resources. There’s just much better way they can make the system engaging without just being a slot machine that can destroy an item.
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do you want a slot machine or a crafting system? I think that his suggestion for tempering is better than what they have implemented as it infers to a crafting system which still has RNG, rather than a complete slot machine that can nullify that big dopamine hit you got from actually getting a GA item by bricking it after 5 rolls. RNG is fine to an extent but I dont want to have to play a slot machine, to play a slot machine (and maybe play another)
They can craft at any point of time. I they are not gated out of it. Getting mats is quite resonable minus veild c.
Its true because its also a ridiculously fast to get to WT4. I did it in 2 hours in the ptr with the new xp buffs.
The items not destroyed its just not perfect. Slot machine mechanics have always been a staple in the arpg genre.
Should be both since everything is so common.
RNG is a slot machine. Its what makes arpgs so addictive.
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This sums up my main issues other than the fact some end game builds feel supremely overpowered and trivialize content.
When it comes to tempering you are 100% correct about unfair weighting, although I would say that perfection is never going to be attainable - its just needs to be ‘fair within reason’.
As for re-rolls, I am conflicted. The fact you can brick an item feels like a good long-term position. However, the ability to have a ‘no change’ option would be a nice addition. i.e you can stick with the current affix roll whatever that might be. That will temper the worst situations IMO and preserve the risk/rewards aspect of the intended design.
Problem with adding resources to add more re-rolls is that players will always want more and Blizzard has to save us from our own desire sometimes. For example, a Resplendent spark adding more durability to an item would feel appropriate from a rarity and risk/reward perspective. However, that is a very rare resource and comes with a huge trade off but how long until people complain they don’t drop enough, Blizzard then falters and Tempering becomes just another instant gratification system?
What Blizzard has done with Tempering is create a system where you can be excited by finding a 3/3 perfect base and then become bittering disappointed. You need some lows to make the highs feel better BUT they need to consider mitigating the really nasty lows this system will force on people. However, the answer isn’t to just give people unlimited re-rolls to craft perfect gear as it kills the item hunt but a resource like Resplendent Sparks could fill that void.
Uniques are a real balance issue - agree.
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The simple fact that this was released without a: Keep Current Roll option makes me lose faith especially when stacked with so many other issues.
I can learn to live with boatloads of failures like I already have in PTR.
But not even being able to PERFECT an item?? wth is that design?
eg. I get desired Affix first roll! Big Win. Though minimum roll, I climbed mount RNG and lived to tell about it…
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Current System: I am honestly scared to roll again. I might use this item with 5/5 Tempers remaining because there simply is no way to shoot for a higher roll except this blatantly stupid blind gambling system
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Ideal System: Keep Current Roll -or- Choose New Affix.
Exactly like the Occultist albeit with 1 new option vs 2.
In this way we get the Desired Affix early, we can choose to try to perfect said Affix.
15 Weapons and 3 Frozen Orb Affixes to date.
There’s also undoubtedly weighting to this exacerbating the issue.
As I said earlier - This new Tempering and Masterworking system is nothing at all to be excited about.
I am actually disappointed when I find a GOOD rare(rare being BiS GAI or GAII Leg)weapon because I know in about 5 minutes I’m going to suffer disappointment, frustration and get pissed off at a terribly designed system.
I want to be excited to hit the Blacksmith.
Instead I’m hesitant, reluctant and prepared for failure with Tempering and Masterworking.
Bad. Design.
is
Bad. Design.
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GA affixes are not common. and if an item rolls with an affix that is unusable to you it is essentially broken. Im not completely against the idea of bricking an item it just happens to easily ( not enough tempering rolls maybe) If they changed the system for tempering to be more of a crafting and you roll within a larger range (as suggested) then i suppose MW failure doesnt bother me quite as much because MW can essentially be endless given enough grind.
keep current roll is another good option that could save the terrible feeling of trying to roll something perfect and failing an as said essentially breaking an item. so far tempering has just been scary and it shouldnt feel that way.
Lets look at LE, it has tons of randomness too but if u just want a useful item w/o bricking it. Its completely impossible to brick it fully by just adding a affix. You might not get the desired ranks, but its not a complete wasted item. But you also have the option to take more risks and have the potential to get rewarded. You control the amount of randomness, which feels great and exciting. Thats why LEs crafting is called the best crafting ever.
This is what d4 didnt got right with its crafting. they implemented a system with just one very risking method which easily bricks ur item(by giving u 2 useless affixes).
What they need to do is improving its options like LE does, one safer path with less random but less chances to make it exceptional and another high risk method that has high potential of bricking but also good chances of making something amazing. Or just the safe method if they want a basic system.
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It may as well be if it’s not going to be able to compete with a current weapon.
Having Imperfections is fine by me. I can deal with a low roll, but for a lot of tempers, there’s just no substitute.
Also getting amazing items and making them fit your build perfectly and making yourself strong has always been a core of ARPGs too.
Look at the other games in the genre for examples.
Path of Exile has various means of deterministically crafting exceptional if not perfect items through time and resources. Hell the ongoing league there is all about putting together amazing items with a new crafting system.
Last Epoch has a crafting system similar to tempering, but guess what, you choose the modifers and it can’t fail. It just take a variable amount of the item’s Forging Potential (like Tempering Rerolls).
There’s no excuse for Tempering to be a slot machine. Even the systems that they likely drew inspiration from aren’t.
Even if I get a perfect item, you know what I’ll do with it? Use the hell out of it. There are the classes and build out there to play. Getting one character kitted out is never the end of a season for me.
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not calling anoyone out here but it feels like the people that ask for and fight for RNG to be in every aspect of an ARPG are addicts. 
RNG is fine but it shouldnt be the only determining factor in building my character/gear otherwise there is no RPG, it is just a slot machine.
I agree with the tempering complaints. Have suggested an improvement in one of my other posts here:
In short: A skills upgrades for example on size, cooldown reduction or extra attacks are largely scattered over different manuals. In most cases they compete with affixes for different skills you definitely not want in a build tailored to a specific main/core attack.
Instead the game should offer manuals focusing on one skill only. You can still get hit with bad luck but your build based on the core attack is upgraded at least somehow. This keeps frustration under control.
Here is a list for all current manuals:
Mainly skill affixes have this chaotic design.
100% This. That’s another reasonable way to fix Tempering. Having broader category-wide rolls is what causes a lot of that frustration. It’s fine for more generic things like Damage or Attack Speed, but doesn’t work for skill-specific options.
It’s a neat concept overall, but right now, it’s a bit too generic to feel like anything other than an RNG lever.
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your example is exactly what i would like to see for manuals, not only does it add to a “crafting system” with more options for a specific skill allowing you to build the skill/build you want but it also takes away the frustration of getting the wrong affix and bricking an item
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some of the manuals also have completely useless things, im thinking specifically of +1 to a skill or + upto 4 of a specific skill. in what world would you not crank that RNG lever to land on the skill specific to you rather than taking the 1 overall… the +1 should be deleted and the +up to 4 shouldnt be weighted if it is.( the few instances i rolled trying to get +specific skill i rolled like 60 times before seeing my skill)
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Agree, I dont get why the generic one has to be there as filler. If it was at least on par, you could make a case for the “Double Core” builds to use that instead. At the worst case, it if it was one less than the specific, it’d be a decent “settle” option to sit on until you cna find another weapon to try again.
Great summary overall.
A few extra points from my perspective.
This is always the way it should work. First a table with priorities set for the Affix Type. Then after the affix has been seleted, then the Affix Range is calculated.
The range of each Affix times the nuber of Affixes should NEVER be used as the calculation basis as it will alway skew results to affixes with wide ranges.
Blizzard please look at the way D2 did drop tables. This is how this should all be done.
Secondly, each of the 3 Affix slots on an item do not need to have the same Affix List. Each slot can have seperate lists with less affixes. Thus Slot 3 would never have Main Stat, Life etc. This slot can be limited to all the “Minor” stats like + to skills, Cooldown etc. which gives a better chance of getting the Affix needed in a smaller nuber of trys.
This same applys to the rolls for Tempering Manual Trys. First calcualte the Affix from the list, THEN calculate the affix range.
A slight mod here. Give each Affix a 5 limit chance, so Going to max on Affix 1 does not screw you on Affix 2.
An alternative that I have not seen suggested anywhere is a new resource (X) which can be collected. When Tempering you can use tis resource to increase you chance of getting the Affix you are after. So when Tempering you can select the specific Affix and spend X. Say something like 1 of X gives a 10% better change of getting the selected Affix, while 10 X gives 100% chance. X may need to be farmed from Legions, World Bosses, Blood Maiden, Pinnical Bosses (Gregorie etc) or NMD Bosses.
As an addition comment on Tempering vs Master Crafting. In a real word comparison, the more complex the work on an item the more likely it is to fail. And Tempering is less complex than Mastercrafting.
So bricking an item with Tempering, but being able to reroll Master crafting is the exact opposite of a real world senario. Tempering should never fail and brick an item, but there should be a chance that Master Crafting will.
So no limits on Tempering and some other mechanism (like suggested) to make it hard but possible to get what you need, and then put a limit of 3 Redo’s on Master Crafting. By then the item is still great and usable, but may just missout on being awesome.
From Memory any upgraded items become account lock which is perfect. You should not have Botters farming, upgrading and selling upgraded gear.
Also any resources for Tempering etc should not be tradable.
Agree 100% on this statement. Blizzard, please listen to this feedback!