I love passives. Show me a build with 5 passives and one not and I’ll probably want to play it.
Your chosen build will naturally fit particular runes. Your play adjustment from there could be minimal. You take the stand still rune for when your normal play entails standing still like having incinerate in your build. I think you also seem to misunderstand the dynamics of this game. Look at the cooldown on the petrify rune - it’s merely five seconds. They wouldn’t be putting such a short cooldown on it if you couldn’t quickly generate the required automatically triggering resource. This “system” will just make your build a little flashier and stronger. Its effect on what you actually do as a player will be minimal. That’s why they’re playing up the “theorycrafting” crap.
There are people like this person who look for the absolute minimum in gaming. But there are many others who yearn for more. You start with a lowest common denominator funnel and build a game up rather than just leave it there. I don’t know how well this game sells, I don’t know what $150 million in cosmetics actually means, but everyone knows this game is a far cry from what Diablo 2 meant to gamers. At some point passion and reputation have to mean something, or this simply becomes a corporate money-making project/scheme disguised as a game.
Diablo 2 is a 20+ year old game. It succeeded because it was novel for its time, not because it was timeless. It left much on the table for future developers to take further, but the people who develop Diablo 4 are not the sort of people who have an instinct to take things further. Furthermore, what is this “pain point” buzzword? That’s one of the fundamental problems. You have so many little people getting involved in things nowadays that everything drowns in pretentious sophistry that ironically makes little qualitative difference. Everyone puts their head in some sort of hole and no one tries to imagine something much better.
% agree here. There’s a reason D2R has very little players with most of them being nostalgic players reliving their glory days.
Also agree. No Rest For The Wicked takes the genre on a different path, where as D4 didn’t even make it to the starting line when it launched, and is now just finally within reach of the starting line.
In general this is true. Even more so when you have Shareholder companies making video games because their goal is not gameplay that makes you think, it’s flashing lights, colors, buttons, and very simplistic gameplay to get the players hooked like a slot machine. This is obviously apparent with how successful mobile games are compared to PC/Console games.
It won’t change anytime soon, if anything it’ll just keep heavily favoring mobile games. Now you can fight against the tide if you so wish, by all means, or you can just accept the fact that if you personally don’t make any effort to change how things work, they’ll never get changed. Also I don’t mean by making random posts on a video game forum, I mean actively doing something to make the change.
We’ve discussed this before but that thread got deleted. Mobile games seem to thrive in places like China where factors like government restrictions, gaming platform ownership, and a very large population may be driving behavior toward lower quality more accessible gaming (a quick look at Wikipedia on “Video games in China” suggests my theory is correct - look at the third paragraph under “Social and mobile gaming (2008–2014)” and beyond). In a developed gaming market like the US (and EU) I don’t think mobile games are all that successful. They are often reviled, as was famously the case within this franchise.
There are all sort of mental gymnastics to be done but in the end there is no justification for a product this deficient given the background aside from professional underperformance across the board, which is not measured in clown story points or reports. The thing is you get enough of these small people together with enough data and information, and God forbid money, to drown them in and no one can raise their head above the surface. Players are equally unhelpful as they similarly can’t detach themselves from the past or what they’ve already seen. If I could make a game on my own I would, but you know very well that is not how this works.
Just some food for thought.
- Revenue
In 2023, mobile games generated over $18 billion in revenue in the US, making it the second largest source of video game revenue in the country. The US is the world’s largest market for mobile game revenue.
- Growth
The US mobile game market is expected to see steady growth from 2024 to 2028, potentially reaching $33.5 billion by 2028.
- User penetration
The mobile gaming user penetration rate in the US increased from 41% in 2019 to over 46% in 2023.
- Demographics
The mobile gaming audience is becoming increasingly diverse in terms of age and gender. In 2023, female players accounted for 54% of smartphone gamers in the US.
- In-app purchases
In 2024, US in-app purchases for mobile games are projected to generate $23.44 billion, with $22.50 billion of that coming from virtual goods sales.
- Ad revenue
In 2024, US mobile game ad revenues are projected to reach $7.77 billion.
The numbers are growing each year. Have to factor in accessibility, ease of use, etc. Majority of adults (and to an extent teenagers or younger) have phones that can play these games. Not everyone has a decent PC or a console that can play the latest and greatest video games.
Yes there is a vocal minority that complain about mobile games, myself included, but the numbers don’t lie despite our complaints. Just as they didn’t matter when people complained about MTX in video games, look how far that’s advanced since it was first introduced back in the late 90’s. Granted it wasn’t called MTX back then, but the point still stands.
Agreed, and I don’t have the creativity myself to make my own video game. However you keep asking for the same thing on a video game forum where you know the game won’t change beyond anything we’ve already seen within the genre. If you want something that challenges your mind and keeps you engaged there’s plenty of other games out there for it. Blizzard games, as I’ve said many times before, won’t be it.
You’re fighting an uphill battle where you quite literally haven’t gotten past the first step. It’s best to walk away from this hill, because you sure aren’t dying on top of it, if anything you’ll be buried beneath the landslide at the bottom.
How long does it take you to kill a pack of elites?
Nope, you are wrong. People will alter and play their builds around this stuff in order to trigger it at the right times. This is what they were doing in PTR, and if they buff more of the runes to be worth playing with then people will do it even more on live.
I don’t know who “they” are, but theorycrafting and adjusting how you play are the same thing in an ARPG. You design a build that works both by selecting a set of skills and passive and gear and by designing the specific way of executing those skills. Some builds are more involved than others, but all of them have specific ways of making it work. Using Blood Lance on Blood Wave to scoop up the extra blood orbs. Cycling your skills on deathblow to hit the deathblow with the right stack. Positioning your firewall to maximize the value of your firebolts. Standing still inside your earthquakes on the AFK build.
The runewords add new considerations that either open up new builds or modify how you execute your build. You can choose not to optimize against them, but that doesn’t mean there is no difference between an approach that optimizes and one that just drops them on.
And the runewords cater to both. You can just get war cry and the crit chance one and choose ritual runes that will keep them up as often as possible and not worry about it.
Or you can choose one of the invoked abilities and adjust your timing or positioning to take advantage of it.
No rest for the wicked tales the soulslike genre into a more diablolike direction. But people who primarily play diablolike games don’t necessarily want a fundamental change to the core gameplay loop. They want innovation at the edges.
Haters love to rant about lack of innovation… and then to rant about each innovation because it isn’t stolen directly from their favorite game. So NRFTW is innovative because it brings in soulslike gameplay. Dark Citadel is uninspired because it brings in WoW (or Lost Ark) gameplay. Runewords are uninspired because they aren’t a direct copy of the D2 runewords.
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Oh agreed, completely. My bigger point was the fact that D4 won’t ever be what the OP wants, not by a long shot. One of their biggest advocates for change is their combo system they want added to the game. By no means is it innovative by any standard, as it can be found in various other games of differing genres. However the implementation would be ‘new’ to Diablo games.
Whether or not it would fit is another story. I also don’t feel it would add anymore thinking on the part of the player in general. Hit a button, it changes to another action, hit that button to complete the combo sequence.
You’ve just turned a button masher into another button masher with slightly different abilities. You’ve gone from spamming hotkey #1 to spamming hotkey #1 then hotkey #4 then hotkey #2 in a sequence. People will always find the most efficient skills to link together.
I’d argue that a more diverse skill system still won’t keep players in the game for longer periods of time. Would it help? Absolutely, but the game needs more fundamental changes then just a few extra skills and a combo system.
Here are some differences between mobile and non-mobile gaming in the US:
- Revenue
In 2023, Newzoo estimated that mobile gaming revenue was $89.9 billion, while console gaming revenue was $52.4 billion and PC gaming revenue was $39.6 billion. In 2024, Data.ai predicts that mobile gaming revenue will increase by 4% to $111.4 billion, with the US accounting for 40% of that growth.
Kind of scary mobile is tied with console and PC in revenue but non-mobile gaming remains highly viable and is the best form of gaming.
People were experimenting with something new. While some adjustment could be expected, particularly if there is a clear cadence (which is again part of the problem with this game, it’s the constant simple repetition) in triggering, the game won’t change much. Frankly, I fully expect much of this stuff to not cause any adjustment. Having read over the runes quotes like this from that link are downright humorous, “With 17 Runes of Ritual and 28 Runes of Invocation initially, there are endless possibilities for players to create their own flashy Runewords when Patch 2.0 officially goes live!” How typical.
Iggi, this is exactly what I mean in being unable to rely on players for any sort of significant innovation. It’s like listening to early-version condemned “AI” robots.
lmao
Dog, no one is writing “you’re choosing not to optimize against them”. The problem is the exact opposite, in assuming that you optimize to play with them your gameplay experience will be as dumb as it was before. For some people that’s ok, disproportionately so on the forum of the particular game under discussion, but more broadly speaking ARPGs are far from the peak of fulfilment. They are basically games for critters, extremely simple to play with an extreme degree of basic repetition with a veneer of “theorycrafting” to make the whole thing seem like it’s not the peak of idiocy. This shouldn’t be so difficult to understand. "ARPG"s are not what human beings are meant to play happily until the sun explodes! These games can be taken further. I would argue they are meant to be taken further.
facepalm
Innovation at the edges… claps How’s that going? Been 20 years of edging innovation, there’s a considerable sample size there.
This is exactly how all you people behave, so fixated on things you have seen, and exactly why you and innovation is an oxymoron. You keep bringing it up but you have no idea what it is.
Iggi, the same with your mobile games argument. You’ve been on this forum too long and because of the people you’re surrounded with and the little questions you get to ask the geniuses at Blizzard you’ve gotten complacent. The reality is you’re not that smart. Trust me on that. This uniform efficiency at the base of your argument that you’re so used to and just the same as everyone else you can’t see beyond is entirely due to your lack of imagination rather than penetrating intelligence. All you people are so used to stupid games for stupid people that you simply cannot believe there is anything more possible within game design. That is the sad nadir we’ve reached in gaming. I would wager there is actually so much that’s possible that you could appallingly segment people into IQ bands based on how effectively they can handle more complex action systems coupled with dynamic environments.
Fundamental changes at the edges, I presume? Also, the word is ‘than’.
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Let’s see:
- Builder/Spender system (which has been an ongoing criticism)
- Builder system is counter-productive to how the game is played and/or just does not feel good. Standing still periodically? Chugging Potions? Spamming Ultimates? You are arbitrarily modifying how the game flows and plays such that you can activate Runes.
- It goes in gear. Instead of making Gems more interesting and dynamic they fell into a similar trap of D2 with Runewords.
- There aren’t really Runewords at all. Just a Builder and Spender. The Spenders are mostly other Class abilities that cannot be modified and which there will be obviously the “best” options for every class and build.
- There isn’t anything new here. It is very 2 dimensional.
How do you make something more interesting and dynamic, carrotfeets? As for your point about runes making you do stuff you otherwise wouldn’t, it’s ultimately because you normally would. You will pick runes that correspond to what you’re normally doing. They will just pop into your particular build, becoming part of the same background system this game runs on. That’s your “endless possibilities” future. Have fun “theorycrafting” it, or copying it off the internet. Super interesting and dynamic. Much ARPG, such fun. The characters end up having more fun than the actual players.
I’ve grown to accept the fact Blizzard games will not be the ‘be all end all’ of gaming. I figured that out a long time ago. I’m surprised it’s taken you this long.
Never said I was, but I have more sense then to think I can change the world by arguing on a video game forum, when any suggestion or idea I can give to better the game will never be implemented. For all your ‘brilliance’ you’re still stuck on this fundamental. I don’t know if it’s the sunk-cost fallacy with you, plain stubbornness, or any other reason, quite frankly it’s irrelevant, it is a ‘you’ problem.
I don’t have the imagination it takes to make a video game you aren’t wrong. I never claimed to have the creativity or know how either. I’ve only ever suggested, that people such as yourself, would be better off making your own game rather then try and convince the developers to change their own game to how you personally see fit.
However you’ve put up your own wall against yourself saying ‘If I could make a game on my own I would’. To which your only obstacle is yourself. You can spend an hour a night learning programming, you can do your research, etc. We live in an age where quite literally just about every single piece of knowledge is at our fingertips and people still refuse to use it. You are one of those people. I am also one of those people, as I have no drive to make a video game.
‘Stupid games’ as you so call put it, are entertaining for the masses, yourself included or you wouldn’t have bought this game, or others like it. Even though I’m sure you’ll argue against that fact. You only play scrabble or mahjong or whatever other intuitive mind bending game you can think of.
Did you ever once think we all like different games for different reasons? Did it ever cross your mind that we don’t look for complexity and critical thinking within a Diablo-ARPG type of video game? I’ve said this before, there are plenty of games out there that challenge the mind, but for some reason you’re stuck on this one.
You quite literally have a grudge against this game and its player base because the game is ‘stupid’ therefor the player base must also be ‘stupid’. Yet for all your ranting and raving has anything changed for the better toward your ideal game? Yet we’re the ‘stupid’ ones? This is the best example of the Dunning-Kruger effect I can honestly think of.
Oh I know, you’ll just flip it around, tell me I’m not smart, that’s perfectly fine. Look if it’ll make you feel better at night, you are right, we’re all wrong. I genuinely hope you find something more worthwhile to put your time and effort toward that will actually give you the results you’re looking for.
Thanks. 
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I tried them in the PTR and will not be using them in the future as they all have activators. You have to do THIS to receive THIS. That is just stupid. Runewords should be immediately activated as they are in D2 and D2R, so you don’t have to move 80 yds or apply 38 skill usages to activate Barbs shout. Once you have the rune word installed it should be passive, and not being required to activate.
Yeah, part of me thinks it could be fun to have an ARPG with a fighting game-style system where each attack leads to a stance (and some stances decay into other stances, while some stances are stable) and then your attacks operate differently when executed in different stances. I could see D4 experimenting with a light version of this for some new class down the road (after they put in a paladin-style class). But it’s always going to be a simple set up in a diablo game, because the game is not about pulling off complex piano sequences and the dynamics of a fighting game come from having an opponent that presents varied defenses and tries to exploit your openings. If you want the game to be that fundamentally different, you just want a different game. The AAA flagship games are never going to innovate at that deep a level because it’s too risky. That’s what indie games are for.
A more complex to execute skill system won’t do much for player engagement. A skill system that enabled more different types of builds would be more likely to draw people in and more likely to get them to make alts.
Yes, the game won’t change much. Since there are lots of people that like it, that’s a good thing, both for those players and for the company. The “constant simple repetition” is a fundamental feature of the genre. If you don’t have that, you are not making a game in this genre.
So your issue isn’t that the runewords are “passive” because this would also be true even if runewords gave you a new active skill. If your issue is that you don’t want to play an ARPG, I think the forum of the most mainstream ARPG out there is a bizarre place to be complaining. The genre evolves, but slowly, and towards better serving the needs of the players who enjoy it. If your problem with the genre is that you want the emphasis to be on decisions made in combat, you are just simply talking about a different genre. ARPGs are about decisions made outside of combat.
And this is a golden age of good ARPGs, so… it’s going quite well!
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Ouch.
facepalm
Iggi might be right about one thing. This is hopeless. I strongly disagree, however, that a game has to be made for idiots and no one else. A person like this can be easily amused. This is the lowest common denominator. You can attach things to a game to go beyond this group of people.
Fascinating. As this is “the most mainstream ARPG out there” presumably it’s the exponent of this golden age. Why are so many people dissatisfied with it? A lack of “different types of builds”? 
What types of builds would those be, seeing as you’re a slow edging innovator serving the needs of those who enjoy that sort of thing?
Because there are so many people who are playing it. It is literally an order of magnitude more popular than most of the games in this genre. That means there are way more different types of player who want the game to be their ideal game.
Lol. Anyone who wants their decisions to take more than a few milliseconds is an idiot who can be entertained by anything!
I’m not even sure what you’re saying here. I prefer a passives build because I’m a senior now and my wrists ain’t what they used to be. Neither are my twitch skills. Passive builds are a way I can still enjoy the game.
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The “Runewords” in Grim Dawn gave you an additional item slot and Skill Slot. Most of these Runes fall into the category of Mobility, such as:
- Blink
- Shield Slam
- Lunge
- Disengage
- Elemental Cleave Conditional Application
- Cleave Conditional Application
This allows players additional mobility without or CC and you could choose if you wanted to be more aggressive, defensive, utility, or just use it for the passive bonuses.
The Affixes on the Runeword usually modified attacks to enable playstyles, converted damage types, increased skill levels, increased defense, resource generation etc. This is an infinitely better way to give players more mobility options (in a game whose entire mechanic revolves around mobility and dodging certain attacks), as well as not force you to find a god-tier Unique just so you can play a certain build. This should replace things like Third Blade, Fields of Crimson, Overkill, Hellhammer, etc.
Unique items should be scarce and truly be Unique, not the bloat we are headed into. It is pretty lame that if you want to play X Build you need Y Unique. Just having the Unique often is not good enough and the Aspect needs to at least be maxed.
This gives you an Active Ability that you otherwise would not have on a CD. It gives more options and flexibility, and frees up itemization to be more interesting.
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The D4 system does this too, but without disrupting the skill bar. Maybe it would be better if some of these were skills you slot on your bar rather than having them fire off when filled (especially for mobility skills), but I don’t think there’s any reason to have all of them work that way.
I think they could still do this with the runeword crafting. Basically, runewords are these additional abilities you can add instead of other socketables (which… hopefully we get more gems or other things later on?), but then you can also use runes to craft skill-specific “uniques” that transform the relevant skill and therefore are absolutely required for the resulting build. No reason not to also let the transformative uniques drop, but now uniques overall can be rarer as drops because the essential ones are available in a more predicable way.
And then they can make more uniques that are not skill specific and do not have an associated recipe, but that enable some really cool build synergies when you do find them. Like giving all your skills a converted damage type, or adding a skill tag to all your skills the way the spirit hall does, or making all your projectiles fire faster or split in two, or doing something like how Crown of Lucion and Locran’s Talisman reward you for extra resource gen or resource max, respectively. Maybe you want these to be a separate category of unique than the skill-specific / rune-craftable ones so you know that the thing that just dropped is cooler.
That’s valid. You’re in a subset of people rather than representative of everyone. A popular game should seek to accommodate people like you, and others who would like a more straightforward or easier experience, while having a significantly higher ceiling for others.
That’s part of it, indeed. What’s apparent is that the game is far from ideal for many people, and no one can really articulate why. People just know they’re dissatisfied and fumble for explanations, things at the edges. There’s a reason why most players aren’t game designers.
Let me reiterate. You’re book smart, no one would deny that. However that doesn’t make you smart in other areas. I’m tech smart, I can tell you the ins and outs of IT. I’m also very knowledgeable in plumbing, and I dabble in car repairs. We all have our own areas of expertise.
My main point is that you are ignorant on how to make live service video game, I dare say 99.99% of the people on these forums are as well. Especially one that caters to the most common denominator which is casual player base. This isn’t to say your ideas don’t hold merit, they absolutely do, however I have no doubt if you had your way with D4, it would be completely different then what we have now.
The other issue is that you believe you are correct, and that everyone who likes these types of games is just dumb. You’re so far into the ‘I’m smarter then everyone’ delusion that you don’t see the whole point of a video game, which is entertainment, and not every form of entertainment is for every individual. There is no one size fits all for entertainment, and there never will be.
However instead of identifying the problem that the game is not for you, and won’t change to your whims, you decide to go on the attack, and blame everyone else for the state of the game, and why it hasn’t evolved to your expectations. Not to say your opinion isn’t valid, it absolutely is, to yourself only. As we all have our own opinions about the game, and not a single one should be discredited due to how ‘smart’ you actually are. However when you go on the attack and blame others for your own problems, then it becomes an issue.
Again I wish you well, I hope you find something that stimulates you beyond what D4 currently offers.
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