ALL the changes needed for S7 & beyond (Long form Write-Up)

PC General Discussion
21

You convinced me…i will read it

22

The fact that he implemented keep existing masterwork if you dont get the one you want was enough for me to realize all the changes he proposed would probably make sense

23

Hahah I did! But come on read them through. I’d like to keep getting feedback from everyone.

I’m sure there are things you disagree on.

24

IMO, even disregarding balance - there are bigger problems with the game

  • The repetition must be reduced as well as the trivialization of the entire game except pits
  • Some effort on improving experience for Alts is required as well

What I’d do probably goes something like this (in as simple few steps as possible)

  • Paragon changes
    • Paragon level no longer account-bound and it’s only partially Shared between characters (up to a Maximum/Minimum level bonus)
    • There’s a minimum level threshold of Paragon depending on Renown (depending on regions completed => 4 per region up to 24). Glyphs also inherit minimal level on unlock but with half the value (up to lvl12)
  • Glyphs
    • Glyph maximum level reduced to 50
    • A level 50 Glyph can now be “socketed” with another glyph, but the socketed Glyph will be reduced to level 14 (in case of being higher)
    • Glyphs can now be acquired even before the character is able to use them by completing dungeons. All dungeons rotate between 6-7 Glyphs, but Whisper and Nightmare dungeons drop another additional Glyph at random
  • Skill Tree
    • Primary and Secondary upgrades of all skills have been baseline reduced by 60% but they are levelable up to 5 levels (much like Skills themselves)
    • Primary and Secondary upgrades to all the skills are now tagged as a “Side effect”, much like some Aspects that occur at a chance (for example Storm Arrow or Blood Boils)

  • Itemization

    • 2 new Affixes added to the Affix Pool: +X level to all Glyphs and + X levels to all Side-effects
    • Masterwork removed, Obducite removed
    • 2 new types of Socketables added to the game: Corruption Orb and Mystic Orb
    • Corruption Orb removes a random affix on a piece of Gear but increases it’s Item Power by 50 and increases stats of another random affix on it by 25%
    • Mystic Orb consumes an entire item that has up to 2 affixes on and makes it a Shard - another type of Socketable. Only same type of item can equip this - weapon-shard into weapon, armor-shard into armor, jewel-shard into jewelry
    • Corruption and Enchanting Orbs can drop only from a World Boss or a Pit Boss, but they can be created at the Occultist for Gem fragments and Obols

  • Pit & Bosses

    • Mother’s Curse debuff duration reduced to 30 seconds. It’s power reduced by ~60% also
    • Maximum Pit level is now 80 and has been readjusted to be as powerful as Pit level 110 was
    • HPs of all Pit Bosses reduced by 60% and their echo-attacks now occur only while the player is outside of the Boss chambers
    • Boss chambers now contain up to 5-9 Bosses and 5-9 resplendent Chests next to them (depending on party size). Each new boss enters in fight 1 minute after the previous one (or previous ones) have been encountered and players choose their initial encounter. Each boss has a timer on them until they walk away with their initial spoils (the chest they originally had next to them)
      ** In the Boss chambers there’s a beacon at each of the corners if players choose to prematurely surrender

This is how you create an actual game :slight_smile: (instead of a list of bunch of repetitive chores i.e. “activities” as they call them…)

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25

This is REALLY interesting actually.

  • Paragon changes
    • Paragon level no longer account-bound and it’s only partially Shared between characters (up to a Maximum/Minimum level bonus)
    • There’s a minimum level threshold of Paragon depending on Renown (depending on regions completed => 4 per region up to 24). Glyphs also inherit minimal level on unlock but with half the value (up to lvl12)
  • Glyphs
    • Glyph maximum level reduced to 50
    • A level 50 Glyph can now be “socketed” with another glyph, but the socketed Glyph will be reduced to level 14 (in case of being higher)
    • Glyphs can now be acquired even before the character is able to use them by completing dungeons. All dungeons rotate between 6-7 Glyphs, but Whisper and Nightmare dungeons drop another additional Glyph at random

Yeah, limit it to a certain cap, so you actually have a sense of progression on alts.
Also, that ‘mix’ of several Glyphs had never popped up in my mind, but reducing their effect but being able to interchange effects would be cool and allow for more build customization.

  • Skill Tree
    • Primary and Secondary upgrades of all skills have been baseline reduced by 60% but they are levelable up to 5 levels (much like Skills themselves)
    • Primary and Secondary upgrades to all the skills are now tagged as a “Side effect”, much like some Aspects that occur at a chance (for example Storm Arrow or Blood Boils)

Also agree, but they’d need to remove the level progression in the tree, so you could choose whichever. Or make the tree more dynamic instead of vertical.

  • Itemization
    • 2 new Affixes added to the Affix Pool: +X level to all Glyphs and + X levels to all Side-effects
    • Masterwork removed, Obducite removed
    • 2 new types of Socketables added to the game: Corruption Orb and Mystic Orb
    • Corruption Orb removes a random affix on a piece of Gear but increases it’s Item Power by 50 and increases stats of another random affix on it by 25%
    • Mystic Orb consumes an entire item that has up to 2 affixes on and makes it a Shard - another type of Socketable. Only same type of item can equip this - weapon-shard into weapon, armor-shard into armor, jewel-shard into jewelry
    • Corruption and Enchanting Orbs can drop only from a World Boss or a Pit Boss, but they can be created at the Occultist for Gem fragments and Obols
  • Pit & Bosses
    • Mother’s Curse debuff duration reduced to 30 seconds. It’s power reduced by ~60% also
    • Maximum Pit level is now 80 and has been readjusted to be as powerful as Pit level 110 was
    • HPs of all Pit Bosses reduced by 60% and their echo-attacks now occur only while the player is outside of the Boss chambers
    • Boss chambers now contain up to 5-9 Bosses and 5-9 resplendent Chests next to them (depending on party size). Each new boss enters in fight 1 minute after the previous one (or previous ones) have been encountered and players choose their initial encounter. Each boss has a timer on them until they walk away with their initial spoils (the chest they originally had next to them)
      ** In the Boss chambers there’s a beacon at each of the corners if players choose to prematurely surrender

Did you randomly think of this? This is all great, lol. I’d play this in a heartbeat. The hell.

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26

Let’s say that for some of them have already had in mind:

  • Wanted to add Orbs for a while for Blue and Regular items for example (if say Regulars can be twice-temp[ered)

I also an glad that they finally look like investing in Socketables so perhaps something similar might pop up in the future ? :thinking:, but yeah, don’t think they’ll reduce on the repeatability and reruns - think they want metrics and “player activity monitor” to guide them through decisions (which also ironically is the worst thing a game can do :P)

It is the Pit changes are the ones that probably and mostly just popped in as of now :slight_smile:

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27

I would add ‘we got rid of rng on tempering and masterworking. you may now choose what you want and get it.’

Also, I don’t love target farming items, as I don’t love it when a game tells me to do X in order to get what I want. However, since it cuts back on rng, I’m fine with it.

Nice job.

28

Ironically, repetition is fine in a loot-based ARPG. However, it works IF and only IF the loot is rewarding.

I think that’s the main issue with D4, 99% of what you get is junk and 99% of the 1% that isn’t junk isn’t usable.
They’ll eventually realize reducing amount of loot and making the existing one meaningful or perhaps usable in some variation, even yellows, will work better.

But I have a feeling they’re going to keep randomly adding unique items making unique items more common than legendaries and keep adding legendary aspects instead of working on skills and their possible changes to make builds feel different…

The amount of time they take to realize this will define the future of D4, unfortunately. And it’s not looking good.

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29

The problem is gaming-experience should branch-out here and there also. It’s not just the loot that matters

Yes, D2 made a good repetitive game but ultimately don’t think D4 can’t afford to reimplement the same recipe for it’s own

D4 as designed was always a “different” game and as such has to improvise and experiment on the “player engagement” (rather than player-assignment level) more

That’s what games are after all :person_shrugging:

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30

The only real problems I see are the removal of the enchanting of the same affix and then lowering of master working costs when you’re only dropping one tier.

Sometimes I’ll choose a lower rank of the affix I want just in case and keep enchanting for the higher rank.

If you’re only dropping from 4 to 0, 8 to 4, or 12 to 8, I think the cost should actually be increased. It’s a VERY impactful change and should be costly.

Also, I think there was/is a Death Blow Barb build that used Crown of Lucian, Starlight, and one of the passives that spent fury, healed based on spent fury, gained fury based on healing in a loop that used the healing received nodes and affixes so I don’t think that should be removed. Not sure how the starlight nerf impacted that though.

Definitely black paint, definitely keep the last tempering option, definitely make ancestral aspects start where legendaries leave off, definitely make unique aspect starting points scale with number of GAs, definitely buff ancestral drop rates and most definitely buff core skills. Season 5 became Season of the Proc where all the top builds used a skill to proc something else (WWDD, LS/FO, Stormslide, Andy’s, etc…).

31

That’s what I wrote, though. The higher the level the higher the cost because higher the return.

That deathblow barb doesn’t work any more. They nerfed starlight this season. Literally no one uses healing received. I don’t mind if it’s there but at least make it be worth something.

Completely agree on Season of the Proc. Really hoping we get better skills and skills trees instead of what we’re getting which is an endless stream of ‘unique’ items and ‘legendary aspects’ that just create a huge clutter in the game and make it so even more of your drops are junk.

It just feels like 99% of the time you spend on the game right now is for junk. It’s a shame.

Not sure what your view is on this.

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32

Last season was the first season I played anything other than Barb. The reason was because I got mythics that made leveling easier and worked for the new character.

Going into this season, I had planned on making a SB, WW Barb, MT Barb, and a dancing rogue. I’m halfway there and I’m not sure if I will continue because the gear drop rate is so bad. I don’t mind having to grind, but the grind has been excessive.

33

Yeah I do agree with you. It’s just that the recipe for D4 will not succeed and will not retain players with the rewards being… well… rewarding.

They have to introduce a loop, either by reducing the ridiculous amount of clutter in the game and making drops meaningful, or introducing such a vast amount of content that people will have so much to do that it drains a lot of time…

Considering their development speed, I think option 1 might be more feasible. Your thoughts?

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34

Always love your feedback dude. You actually have a pulse on the community and game needs. You also write your feedback in a nice organized and readable format. Hire this guy Blizz. At least involve on internal testing.

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35

Maybe they will figure that out for D5.

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36

The game is definitely becoming more bloated on loot. Most of it being useless. This is across uniques because like classes they have a hard time balancing them. This is across aspects as well because they keep adding them and most of them are useless. I have 90+ hours in the game and just got the top roll moonrise aspect at 88 hours. I dont even mean the top ancestral roll. I mean the top legendary roll. Its too bloated and too tough to get the ones you want.

Maybe they think that brings more build variety but because the skills themselves are mostly dog crap, most aspects associated with them are also dog crap. They need to put more power into skills and stop and look at what skills are getting huge multipliers off this bloat and which ones are not.

Less loot but more impactful drops. Making ancestral rare and aspects rare is not what achieves this. Making good loot is what achieves this. Making content rewarding to get this loot too. The game is just a hollow casino grind no matter what you are trying to do.

Also progression always feels non existent because it is non existent. Everything can drop from anywhere is what they shoot for and this is what causes it. Tougher content should give better rewards. Thats how you have progression. Just like in early levels you start with crap drops. As you get to tougher content you get better drops. That stops in T1.

Anyways I loved your post. I didnt really want to comment on it because it just all seemed like what should happen.

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37

Disclaimer: here comes an actual wall of text (but looks like you might be someone that might appreciate the subject’s background overall so grab a coffee or two :slight_smile: )

  • 1 - The game should not be more rewarding (or more unrewarding for that matter), what the game should be is more surprising, or at least have the potential for surprises

This is not just a D4 issue, this is an issue across the whole genre

In fact I’d argue that PoE is the ONLY game that has some surprising encounters and even that’s quite rudimentary overall. Perhaps I even have not played that game enough but feels like quite often when I fight an elite it has something else than another previous has had at their disposal (though a bit pixel-taxing and eye-taxing maybe tbh)

Also, must say that this feels to me quite intuitive and obvious:

In order to make some space/room for surprises (even if very few) have to cut down on reps. That “gym membership” design is just outright terrible when going on long distance and it makes it THAT MUCH worse for all the “inefficient” ways to play the game

It is also why I’m a firm believer in the “weakest link” principle - the game is as good as it’s worse experience of gameplay feels (not the best, worst gameplay experience defines the quality overall)

  • 2 - Providing acquisition of excess of power through repetition is by far the worst thing a game can do

That’s why I suggested the obvious = reduce Max glyph level to 50. And I think everyone and their grandma would agree that the 50-100 on Glyphs is but an excess labor (yes, that is more raw power with little to no risk but it is also an uninspiring labor)

Same with the long boss fights, have 3-4-5 smaller boss fights in a row, additionally - having the echoed boss attacks DURING the pit run as opposed to inside the boss chamber would potentially add some additional thrilling/close-calls potential

IN GENERAL I’ve always believed that:

  • 3 - If something should happen (regardless if succeed or fail) - should happen in reasonable amount of time/effort… Better have players attempt something 10-15 times but make them more substantial/rememberable/harder (as opposed to 500 easier attempts for the sake of time and resource consumption and then “slam” a success rate of 0.05% or whatever the low number)

I believe this because the best experiences people have with a game (if they wanna truly enjoy it) is via close calls… Not too much, but not too many either, either way the

  • 4 - Art of timing and dozing close calls is what makes a game perfect in it’s own volition

Guess what - D4 has NONE. In fact it’s EVEN WORSE - they’ve totally “shifted the blame” onto the player (totally depending on the player whether or not they struggle, have super easy breeze, or having some regular progression at the cost of knowing they won’t cover as much ground as fast as someone else that has decided to make it for them easier

THAT is BY FAR the worst design possible. Games should have a pace of their own, a cause of their own, even a “life” of their own - it is not (and definitely should not be) up to the player to decide their engagement outcome by upfrong “preselecting” their route

People want to “shuffle” their resources, especially during/right-after a close-call. The worst that can happen is make people play the same thing 500 times for the sake of a “completion” reward

If they should fail - fail earlier, if they should win - make it reasonable (not a goose chase or a needle in a haystag pursuit)

That also goes in the next point of mine that:

  • 5 - Tasks are boring, experimentation is fun (or at least have some reasonable ratio between tasks and experimentations)

This game is based ENTIRELY around tasks - the #1 reason why it is so hated and horrible… Allow more space for experimentation and people trying to optimize stuff to eeek out another victory from a close call. Having Glyphs, Paragon, e.t.c. scale to 100/300 respectively does not improve the gameplay, in fact makes it that much worse

  • The more options to interconnect and/or try-out the better, the more raw power accumulation via reps the worse

That’s why instead of MW just introduce Orbs to all-in an item and eventually turn it into a socket, that’s why instead of 200+ Paragon to push just add addition of massive boss runs (shorter but more numerous)

IDK about other people but the most fun I’ve ever had in D4 is while not being superior and just having enough power to complete (or nearly miss) events. And as far as I’m concerned = EXACTLY THAT is the most unexplored part of the game because it feels perfectly fitting for a game hosted in an Open world

I mean if the game is Open-world hosted why not use that advantage ?

  • Caravans
  • Super elite patrols
  • Siege events
  • Flyer flock invasions

e.t.c.

This is why people should keep to CONCEPTS as opposed to “standards”. Concepts allow in-depth analysis and understanding of WHY things work (or don’t work). Also being aware of concepts allow people/devs/players to PERCEIVE what would work for the game (and subsequently what wouldn’t)

Standards are a “failsafe” that is a “path of least resistance” and blind hope based on previous successes of something related or not to what it is currently going on. If another game has succeeded by doing something - does not mean yours would too… ALSO I’d argue that Standards LOSE RELEVANCY based on repetition amount. Every new time a certain Standard is used has value and less chance of success overall

Things like:

  • This is not Diablo
  • Diablo is a game about loot
  • People want to feel powerful
  • Game lacks Armory, or Loot Filter
  • e.t.c.

Those “takes” have no bearing at all, cause all they do is “the game does not abide towards X standard”, guess what - the game should NOT abide to them. It should be “something working as intended on it’s own”

At least not until it feels like a game in it’s nature rather than a “cyberactivity device with benchmarks and performances”, just IGNORE all those

Standards KILL the gameplay dynamics first of all but they kill creativity also. I’d even say that much like the famous quote about Basketball being more art than science ? - Games are THAT MUCH MORE art than science, heck I’d even summarize it as:

  • Games are Art of Science rather than Science of Art

TLDR ? - the important thing is = once the game is beaten don’t allow reps to make it entirely trivial = that is the fastest way to turn the game into science of art i.e. Excel/Calculation/Performance-Benchmark optimizer simulator (which is the most terrible outcome also)

Instead insert more surprises and allow more types of experimental pieces for people to optimize performance within reasonable scope => ART of pieces created by Science (provide pieces of a puzzle with some excess pieces for people to try to “uncover” largest part of the picture they can do)

I actually like this last piece so will repeat it again with less noise:

  • Games are an ART of pieces created by Science, and not a Science that utilizes pieces provided by Art

Edit city at it’s finest but hopefully not a long go :person_shrugging:

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38

I always love these! :smiley:

  1. Well, being more surprising does make it more rewarding. Same feeling as the logic of the loot. Better, rarer loot = more rewarding than loads of bad loot.
    Couldn’t agree more on the ‘Gym membership’ point & the weakest link as well. It does feel like we have mandatory, rotating activities that’re either hit or miss and make the loop feel repetitive and monotone.
    But what exactly makes it more ‘surprising’ and, consequently, rewarding?

  2. I agree with you, somewhat. Don’t you like a more layered system with threshold levels of power? like the current 15, 46, 100? I do. Doesn’t mean we can’t have that up to 50 as long as the XP required to go from threshold to threshold is significative.

  3. Yeah, I agree. RNG systems in any game apart from drops are a big no. Especially when they’re so excruciatingly common like in D4 where they’re transversal across ALL activities.

  4. What’s your practical solution & changes here?

  5. What would those events give you and where are they in the progression loop? I think most people in D4, myself included, like the sense of loads of power, not doing events at low level, rather perfecting a strong build step by step.

I do agree with you that the best path forward is a reshape of current status, and that the wheel is broken right now, especially in its sense of rewarding. Wonder what it’d look like with these.

Thanks for taking the time, really enjoy these!

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39

IMO - don’t think they should stick to the concept of “progression loop” at all. Yes it would feel bad if the game feels “unorganized” in some ways but I’d argue in other ways it would be better

That being said - I don’t think that there should be “safe haven” when acquiring stuff in terms of progression… I’d argue that is a limitation that does not allow the game thrive also

Here’s a simple concept/idea that I’ve had awhile ago (I call it the 7-7-7 rule) that should provide some surprises (or at least room for surprises overall)

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d4/t/diablo-4-design-team-should-reconsider-their-paradigm-of-how-they-think-of-the-game/168951

IDK about solutions but there can be simple paradigm shift in what I call the “secondary gameplay” loop - i.e. how does the game feel when playing it more dedicated and longer (like a Gym membership - i.e. trash - that is how it feels right now)

The way things work is the “gameplay progression loop” of D4 currently is:

  • Place a bet
  • Do a round of “cardio”
  • Pull the lever for a RNG reward

Anything that would make the game STRAY AWAY from this is already a huge win in my book (don’t have to have all the answers, just have the answer of what NOT to be done is enough for a start overall)

Think of ANY child/social game that has existed (Ring around the Rosie, Catch, Hopscotch, literally ANYTHING - and try “translate” it into the game - I’d guarantee it would work better than what’s in it now)

RaRtR ? - an event where you start at the center of a maze and have to get out before getting burned by a rotating firehose or whatever… Can make it cool in terms of “unlock as many chests as possible” before they get burned down also

Catch ? - a bunch of elites are playing “Kameha” at throwing an Orb between each another. In that Orb you can clearly see what item it holds and every new “cycle” of catch that item is changed to something new. You can hurt only the members of the pack that are not holding the Orb at the moment

That makes it kinda like an event that guarantees a unique drop - but requires a bit more planning and timing overall. Here’s the cool thing - imagine if there are 2 or 3 Orbs ? - now it’s even more chaotic and providing those “bits of chaos” that the game may or may not need without making it chaotic baseline for everyone overall

JUST be creative, try things out, really not everything has to be a “chapter” in progression cycle. Think of it as a music and each “event” being an instrument rather than some kind of a “tree of powers” structure, let each of those “instruments” have it’s own flavor without overburdening the whole

I mean even GD has better use of the Overworld, how come a game that was released ~15 years ago have a sense of proper/natural use of the Overworld where some monsters can be -[5-10] levels than the player (and subsequently higher) but NOT D4 ? :person_shrugging:

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40

A lot of good QoL changes mentioned, hopefully most of which they aren’t oblivious to as a team currently. Some changes I think tilt the game towards being too easy or too heavy on the gibs, but overall a lot of good feedback. :v:

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