There’s a difference between “Let’s keep doing things the old way” and “the new way needs a bit more work before it’s ready for a roll out”.
Things like the Dreamcast show us that just because it’s the future doesn’t mean it’s going to catch on if you try to rush it out before things are ready for it.
As for AI balancing I have my doubts that AI balancing will ever result in a fun RPG. It might seem a bit counter-intuitive, but imbalances is part of what makes RPGs fun and gives classes uniqueness.
I’ve done more theorycrafting in other games than probably most people here so I’m not gonna say I don’t like getting into all the numbers and math, but there’s a point where it does hurt the game in my opinion.
and the problem is that “what makes a fun RPG” isn’t a mathematical solution. It’s something that humans have a hard enough time figuring out, much less a computer program.
but your answer to most of my concerns seems to be the Todd Howard special of “don’t worry, it just works”.
and do you notice how companies like SpaceX aren’t immediately trying to go to Mars?
They’re working their way up to it, running test on smaller projects before they roll out the red carpet for the big one.
Seasons are the way to hold players hundreds if not thousands of hours. I dont understand what it has to do with roguelike stuff. No character builder is so deep it works for hundred of hours, imho, especially in modern game industry where players have built tons of characters already, then again roguelike stuff should be something new.
I’m not talking about keeping players playing, I’m talking about players who want to invest a lot of time into a character and plan things out, or make builds to try on other characters.
Building characters and trying out different strategies you come up with are a cornerstone of Diablo gameplay, in my opinion. Even in Diablo 3 where it can be fairly shallow at times, they still tried to put it at the heart of the gameplay.
Roguelikes are the antithesis to that because by their very nature you can’t plan builds. Roguelikes are games where you simply have to make do with whatever you find and there is no way to target very specific items outside of sheer luck.
I like many roguelike games, but it’s not a good fit for a Diablo game imo.
I don’t think those D3 folks having the same meta since ages would agree with you.
It’s good to have many tiers of power such that if I randomly pick 12 items I might end up doing maximum GR1, but if I am a theorycrafting master I can make that GR150 build. However it’s good to have balance among the tiers so players could potentially go for different combinations/builds that they enjoy in every tier. A balancing AI would solve that leaving more space for the developers in designing new items.
That’s what we are doing here - we are discussing the theoretical part and potential implications the AI would have. And these are many - with one AI you solve balancing, trading and crafting all together. Now you can go and say developers can do this on their own, but I’d point you to PoE and their never ending 10 years struggle with these aspects.
I already wrote you we need a mix of adapting to drops in early/mid Season and planning. The more hours you invest into a character should lead to you more successfully enforcing your build plan.
The above doesn’t mean roguelike aspects are to be shut from Diablo, on the contrary - more randomization won’t hurt the game, it would enrich it as long as the player could still ultimately decide what build to “chase” and exercise full control over it in late game.
What the roguelike randomization would deliver if implemented properly is simply more replayability and more interesting Seasons, then if you are that type of player that doesn’t like that and want to enjoy a single build for thousands of hours you could still do that at NS. Moreover, such potential randomization would make it so that you would still check every Season whether your favorite build hasn’t got stronger there.
As a conclusion we can see that a rougelike randomization favors both the players that enjoy figuring out different gameplay on regular basis and such that prefer to stick to a favorite build. The players that might “suffer” are the novice players if the game’s systems/itemization is unnecessary complicated with stuff that they can’t begin to solve by themselves, but that would ultimately mean your game is not well designed and easy to learn. A well designed aRPG would ALWAYS benefit from a roguelike randomization. And of course the AI is to help here with balance again by removing that ultra high/low distribution from rolling.
Imbalances and a meta that doesn’t change are two entirely separate things.
Diablo 3 is also a really bad example because the insanely high multipliers cause a lot of issues.
What we’re doing is talking about it. Doing a live run is a completely different thing, and not at all what we’re doing.
This isn’t even making the blueprints for the rockets. We’re talking about the engine and you’re going “Alright, let’s build it and go to Mars already!”. There’s a few steps between here and there.
There’s also a point where you want to use the rocket to go to the grocery store down the street, and I’m suggesting a car might be a better option.
It’s almost like my comments about wanting to be able to plan builds is directed at another poster, not you.
I dont think we have played same Diablo. I dont make strategies etc. I just hack and slash, through the zones, roguelike games tend to have funnier zones.
You can certainly do that in Diablo 2 and PoE. It just wont be super efficient. Heck, even in D3 having no strategy will be somewhat inefficient.
Though even many roguelikes have both builds and strategies as well. Just because you are not in full control, it doesn’t mean there is no control, or no planning you can do.
Well its Blizz’s call. I think they could easily take stuff from Roguelike games like ADOM or Nethack. Like Cursed items, its cursed until you bless it. Monster Memory is one nice feature too. Literacy? You dont just read Portal Scrolls out of your mind.
It’s still there in previous Diablo games and its numerous clones, and almost no one plays these. The aRPG genre has to evolve. Don’t be shortsighted and fear changes.
Sadly there isnt any modern high-budget roguelike game. Thats what Im saying, what Blizz should do. Roguelike games are good direction. It takes literally years to implement all that and keep your competitors at distance.
If they take inspiration from games like Adom and Nethack and modernize them, they are surely on the money.
I’m not opposed to more roguelikes, just not as the mainline Diablo game. I want that to be a Diablo game.
As a spin-off or a brand new series, sure, but I’m picking up Diablo 4 to play some Diablo.
Roguelikes are also designed in such a way that I imagine even if a AAA developer did make one, it probably wouldn’t look much different from a game like Hades gameplay wise. They tend to be about a smaller amount of content that you keep running through, which is why they’re so attractive to smaller developers to make.
