Win-10 End of Life coming in 2025... options?!

General Discussion
21

I’m on EndeavourOS and I have a Linux Mint v22 install that I maintain. This helps to keep me grounded with what newbies are experiencing. I use Win 10 for work and will be moving to Win 11 because my employer will require it. However, that is work stuff. For personal computing/gaming I’m off the Windows platform. I experiment with several other distros as well. I have Win 10 in a VM that I use for personal testing that will have to upgraded to Win 11.

I had a similar experience to you with computers over the decades. We are dinosaurs. I use to look at my undergrad professors as dinosaurs because they talked about punch cards and punch card readers from the 1960s. Those old heads are some of the coolest cats in their retirement.

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I’m not concerned with the average user or gamer in the way you seem to be. From my experience, most “average users” just want something that works. Have you ever done in-house IT support? If you had, you’d realize how much better you are at computers than the average person.

Regarding AtlasOS, I’ve already stated multiple times that it’s unsafe and wouldn’t recommend it as a daily driver. I’m not sure why this point isn’t sinking in. Do you understand what a “daily driver” means, or are you just trying to throw shade?

Removing TPM 2.0, while not ideal, is arguably less risky than staying on Windows 10 after it reaches its end of life (EOL). If safety is your primary concern, why not go all the way back to Windows XP? At least it’d be faster and just as safe as an unsupported Windows 10.

As for Linux, based on my experience, suggesting the average user switch to Linux isn’t practical. Many users don’t have the technical knowledge to manage it properly—case in point, they’d probably end up setting file permissions to chmod a+rwx just to avoid dealing with errors. For most people, moving to Windows 11, even with TPM 2.0 removed, is a safer and more user-friendly choice.

Even @TheTias highlighted this point:

How do you think the average user is going to handle these issues? Imagine a dad coming home after a 9-5 job, wanting to relax and play a game, only to spend hours Googling obscure dependency errors. Nine times out of ten, they’re going to end up searching for “how to install Windows XX” and stick with it because it’s simpler and just works. Windows, win those.

Lastly, you don’t even use proper quotes when responding here. If you’re not willing to take the time to format your replies correctly, how do you expect the average user to conduct thorough and accurate research? Let’s keep expectations realistic.

23

Here we go… All together everyone… stroke… stroke… ahem… I mean… back pedal… back pedal… back pedal…

(article) Microsoft now allowing Windows 11 on older, incompatible PCs ==> https://www.pcworld.com/article/2550265/microsoft-now-allowing-windows-11-on-older-incompatible-pcs.html

You can do it but you are still on your own.

Mumbles while walking away: As long as they don’t migrate to Linux…

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24

It’s not a backpedal. They’re just giving up on trying to block Windows 11 from being installed on older PCs and putting a big YMMV sticker on it instead. Also, note this part of the article:

In essence, they’re telling you flat out you won’t receive updates. Their biggest mistake was the TPM 2.0 requirement since only BitLocker uses it currently. No other Windows component does.

And even more curious is this part of the article:

This indicates that MS may have been running afoul of the EU’s rather strict anti-consumer laws and/or they’re trying to take any out they can with the US anti-trust investigation currently going on, or both.

If they actively block updates from users that install Windows 11 on hardware without TPM 2.0 then they may well be shooting both the user and themselves in the foot since it’s very easy to prove that Windows 11 doesn’t even need TPM at all outside of BitLocker.

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25

The disclaimer is why I said:

You can do it but you are still on your own.

I still say its a back pedal because M$ was pushing hard for TPM 2.0. They wanted to get as much of the customer base to a common level (TPM 2.0 installed). There is another move they have in mind that comes behind the push for TPM 2.0. It is to position pieces and place hurdles and impediments.

I only experienced this once. This was back in Dec. 2022. I built my Ryzen 7 5800 PC and thought I had prepared well. Little did I realize that there was an incoming new v6.0 kernel. I was on Manjaro at the time and had an elaborate plan setup. There was an issue with that kernel and the Steam client that was also on the verge of a major upgrade. Upgrading Manjaro to the version that came with the v6.0 kernel broke the Steam client, to the point that no games would run; not even Linux native games like Shadow of Mordor. I spent Dec. 2022 all the way to late Feb. 2023 trying to troubleshoot and learn what was going on and why. Over the course of that time period there were patches and new releases of the v6 kernel, changes/updates to the Steam client, changes/updates to Manjaro, so I was chasing a moving target. I wasn’t the only person encountering the problems. I was coordinating testing, experimentation, and info. sharing across multiple forums.

What I learned was that the kernel and Steam client bad interaction affected all of the Arch family of distros that used the v6.x client. The issue wasn’t resolved until like v6.5.x or v6.8.x (correction). So newer isn’t always better. Part of the issue was that if one switched between a v5.x kernel and a v6.x it would essentially cause Steam to spaghetti-fy the shared libraries and screw up the configuration. The eventual working solution was found by running Linux Mint (v20.x or v21.x) and Pop_OS v22.04. Those OSes didn’t change nearly as much or as frequently, and their v6.x kernels did not break Steam.

So, I can understand your point. However, the problem wasn’t Linux or the Linux kernel, the problem was the response by the Steam client to the active kernel the user booted into. On the Arch distros, anytime the kernel changed, Steam would do a tiny update. The tiny update was the spaghetti-fication process of the shared libraries and configuration. By the time Arch was using the v6.1.5 to v6.2.x kernel the Steam issue was resolved. The changes Steam was making to the client was related to the Steam Deck. So, unfortunately, I got caught attempting to walk across a tight rope in what ended up being a Cat 3 hurricane. Needless to say, that is bad for business. Now, Steam is stable, I’ve done extensive testing across many distros with more than 20 games as my testing set. One thing to note is that during all that chaos, WINE/Lutris worked without any issue.

I expect that the Linux community is going to experience more of those unfortunate growing pains, due to the rapid uncoordinated nature of development on the Linux side. The lesson learned from that experience is to be prepared and have alternative routes ready so one is not brought to a grinding halt. Growing pains? I’m not scared and I’m teaching others to be prepared.

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26

I’m so glad I play on Steam Deck with Linux. I don’t even have a Windows machine anymore, gave it to my father so he can deal with Microsoft spyware, bloatware, and forced upgrades.

27

Honestly, everyone is in a panic about this, but you don’t need to be.

Windows 10 is not due to reach end of life for nearly a year (next October).

And even then, its not like they are going to flip a switch and your machine is immediately rendered useless.

It will slowly over time however be less and less compatible and more and more vulnerable as its code ages.

As for the updating thing to 11. That isn’t really an issue either. Either do it, or don’t. But if you do it, make sure you do the upgrade so the version is activated. You can then later do a clean installation as that hardware (mainly the motherboard) will then have been activated with 11.

I have been refurbishing Dell PCs that are as old as 5th gen and running 11 on them just fine, even before they announced they were going to allow you to install it on older than they required hardware. And I was using the USB Windows 10 install/Windows 11 file method. (essentially using a Windows 10 install USB to copy the Windows 11 files to get past the requirement checks)

And if you don’t want to be forced to associate your Windows with a Microsoft account, you can still get past that requirement, providing you are installing with version 22H2 or older of Windows 11. I think the 23H2 and newer broke this option to prevent it.

The method I’m referring to is the use of Shift+F10 to open a dos prompt when the installation asks you to connect to a network. You then type in OOBE\BYPASSNRO and hit enter. That will restart, you go through setup and will then have an option to do limited setup instead of connecting to a network.

But if you are installing version 23H2 or 24H2, this is most likely disabled and will not work.

This is a very good point. Bitlocker is not needed, yet they are wanting to force it onto more and more users. But the nightmare it could bring some of their customers is unimaginable. I have a very small number of users that actually have to use this. Two of them are tax accountants, and they have a whole heap of things they have to use (required) including blt locker features. And I had to impress on them the understanding of not only protecting their password, but keep an offsite backup of the encryption, using complicated passwords as well as many other things including offline backups along with cloud backups, etc. Not to mention they run VPN software and a host of other things that are required to work in that field.

But beyond those few, 99.9% of the rest of us don’t need that level of security, unless you are a bit fearful or paranoid.

Have to remember, most of the people I deal with are older generation, the biggest security problem they have are themselves.

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28

I think you misinterpret the point of the thread. There is no panic involved. It is to get folks to think about this early. Instead of putting if off until the day of EoL or some days/weeks after EoL and then they panic. Panic the point described previous usually happens when a non-technical person reads a news article in the main stream press and the EoL is sensationalized. The sensationalized news report can trigger some non-technical folks to spend unnecessarily (buying a new PC with Win 11 so they can avoid a perceived problem). Getting folks to think about the incoming EoL now, presenting and explaining options, and offering assistance, in my mind is the right thing to do.

As stated previously no one can’t (correction) predict what M$ might do in the future. As of now they are telling the media that folks who don’t meet the Win 11 requirements can upgrade to Win 11, but they must accept the consequences of that choice (meaning the user must accept the issues that come with that choice). See the PC World article I linked to in a previous post. So if staying on Win 10 means the user won’t be getting security updates, and moving to Win 11 without satisfying the requirements means the user isn’t entitled to certain updates and there might be compatibility issues, the end user is in a compromised situation. M$ is basically lightening their support load while still doing all of the data collection stuff on Win 11. Its fine if people accept those terms.

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He clearly does not have that option.

I have a 9 months old Dell Tower PC with all the latest gear.

I still use the older win10 pc at times, which is a power house and can play D3/D4 and PoE 2 with no issues.

30

The sad part is that all of the Windows 11 “major” requirements aren’t even requirements in reality. You don’t have to use secure boot (thankfully, as this preserves relatively easy multibooting), you don’t need TPM at all unless you’re using BitLocker, which on a gaming system is something you really don’t want the headaches with if things go south with BitLocker, to say nothing of how badly it impacts SSD performance, and every CPU from 2008 onward has the necessary instruction sets to run Windows 11.

This entire mess is Microsoft’s own doing. All of modern hardware can run Windows 11. They simply don’t want to support the hardware and put forth pathetic and easily debunked requirements.

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31

You do need TPM though. It said cannot download without TPM 2.0 on mine. I didn’t like the idea of it but sure enough after years (a month or so after buying it) of looking at the msg, my system automatically downloaded windows 11 activating TPM (which i knew only needed activating in BIOS). Same with PS… i buy a PS5 and they announce a new PS5 (shocked it was a new PS5 and not a PS6 but after really thinking about it i thought… typical). Lol.

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32

Hi all, good that you (@Bossdog) brought this up.

First of all I have a new laptop and it had win11 pre installed. After doing the initial updating and some debloating my experience is mostly positive.

So my advice is to go ahead and try it out.

Secondly don’t, all of us, be afraid to try Linux, but make the effort to prepare first.

I’d like to recommend two sources of knowledge on youtube. One is Chris Titus on Titus Tech and the other is cybercpu.

Titus have some informative videos regarding Linux. One video even if it is about a year old is about his rating of distros. Take it like a pointer and not literally. One category he had there is about distros for newcomers. He also made a video or two of how ti install a distro. Lastly you should check out a video talking about problems he encountered. For new installs he recommended Mint among a few others. If you want to game his recommendation was “Nubara” not sure it is spelled like that.

Cybercpu mostly gives you tips about windows 10 and 11. Lots of information there. One is that I would recommend is how to create a recovery USB stick.

Now remember that these aren’t the only sources of course.

Do your research and be prepared to go back, back up your personal files.

That’s it from me hope it helped.

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33

You made a great post for the entirely wrong reason. Win10 going EoL is about as problematic as Y2K. Though, I reiterate that you have a lot of good, useful information in there about Linux.

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34

Thank you guys for the kind replies and the replies that push back.

@Stedia:
How did you debloat Win 11? Can you link to a guide or video? I have Titus book marked.

@Dimlhugion:
Why do you think Win 10 EoL is as problematic as Y2K?

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35

If I had to guess, I’d say it’s because people make a mountain out of a molehill about Win10 similarly. Y2K hit and we were just fine.

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36

Hmmm, I wrote debloat… I meant uninstall.

It came with Macaffy pre installed. I sent it flying.

As for debloating
Cybercpu has some videos on that. If I am not mistaken so does Titus. He has made an installation script aswell for windows.

Basically if I remember correctly you can stop some back ground processes. And/or make a reinstall free from bloatware,without Ms login and so on.

For now I honestly did the first step and now I can’t stop playing :slight_smile:

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37

It’s not that big of a problem now and maybe a year from now.

The operating system will probably work even if you don’t get new upgrades.

BUT

As time passes it will probably be a problem as vulnerabilities will be uncovered.

Don’t forget that win10 has a huge market share. That probably means that it will be a target for jackasses with malicious intent!

And that is why it is a good idea to look for options now that is what the op is about.

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That goes without saying in regards to any OS, even ones that are current but need a security update.

My point is that people are making it out to be a bigger deal than it is. I remember posts like this when WinXP and 7 were running where people were worried about a lot of things, most that never even happened despite being “popularly believed”.

Not trying to discredit or shrug off the OP. I saw he chose not to install Win11 on one of his machines and that’s his choice.

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39

Like I said. It doesn’t have to be the end of the world. So far we are in agreement.

But since XP and win7 the population of computers have grown. And today if I am not mistaken half runs win 10.

If 10% of those are outdated and win11 is a bad choice then it would be good to look for options if you want to use your hardware safely.

You don’t have to. Like I said the number of users left on win 10 can become easy prey.

So to wrap it up. Older systems will work but can become vulnerable, so you have to be careful. If you want to give your system prolonged life then searching about how to make a shift to Linux isn’t a bad idea. Doing that isn’t a walk in the park though.

Final words: Don’t panic, plan.

:slight_smile:

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Near 100% of all critical infrastructure in the contiguous united states runs on machinery that was antiquated circa 2010.

I’m not kidding. I’m not exaggerating. Look over the assistant’s shoulder while they take your blood pressure at your next doctor’s visit for a routine checkup. Make note of the “computer on wheels” they enter the results into and what it’s running on.

Win10 reaching EoL is not a doomsday scenario. If anything, maybe it will cause some gas stations and banks to update TO Win10 because it’ll be that much easier to get it for low-to-no money.

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