Where are the DH players?

[Free-1746]

@Rage-13139

Sure. Or, it doesn’t even have to be “settled” before you add it to the OP, it can just be stuff currently under discussion. It’s just nice, when you’re like “what idea was it we came up with, again?” to be able to find it right away rather than going on a scavenger hunt.

I know “gatekeeping” has a bad name, but some low level of it definitely makes life less bad. I mean, imagine 30 people commenting in your discussion, each of whom suggests an idea like “Buff Yang’s (or Karlei’s, or DML, etc) by 10%, then you’ll be OP”.

These are terrible ideas, not because Yang’s or Karlei’s don’t deserve a buff, but because those buffs are not nearly enough. “Everybody’s voice is important”, be damned. Anybody who suggest buffs like that is either trolling you guys or has no idea how the game works. I mean, you don’t want to be a jerk, but you don’t want to be a victim, either.

This is great advice. It’s also the same exact Rage and I tried to offer in the DH forums:

@Free-1746

What I mean is that threads with comprehensive feedback are great, but you need to centralize them in one place, with a single, comprehensive game design philosophy (that aligns realistically with the devs), and you have to come up with concrete, specific fixes. Someone–or a few someones–need to be in charge to moderate, so to speak, the good ideas from the bad. You need to polish it all and present it in GD as a unified, cohesive community.

@Free-1746

Not all opinions are valid, and not all voices carry the same weight. If you want to succeed at a buff proposal, you need community backing and participation, yes, but you also need someone front and center that really understands the game, someone who can filter the bad suggestions from the good.

@Free-1746

To be clear, I’m not suggesting that every contentious opinion get shouted down, but I am suggesting that there has to be some quality control in the process of selecting which specific ideas best represent realistic solutions to problems.

@Free-1746

I’m with you 100% on this. In fact, our approach to looking out for players of all levels of engagement aligns. But choosing community spokespeople isn’t about popularity. It should boil down to the quality of their contributions–and potentially how much they contribute.

Who knows the most about the class? Who really knows the ins and outs of its builds and mechanics, its strengths and weaknesses? Who has written build guides and taught new players the ropes? Who contributes? Look for those people.

@Rage-13139

I think you just need to kind of go through these, consolidate and condense.

The push-back we got there, particularly from my suggestion to get some community spokespeople out in front, was pretty off-putting. But it looks like things have turned around. If you want a cohesive, coherent community-backed pitch, someone (or a couple of someones) have got to take charge and shepherd things. It’s still going to be a community effort, but it definitely needs leadership.

Organize, unionize, strike!

Err . . . or buff, I guess.

[KillerProc-1122]

Well, not exactly, Free.

I know what you’re trying to say, but there’s at least one difference, I’m not a spokesman. I have no influence over any of the ideas presented in this thread. At most, I try to steer the conversation back on course when it gets a little off-topic.

About the only influence I’ve had is to feed ideas about my personal favorite set.

I think it would cool for us to delve into the Shadow set now and see what it needs, but I’m not going to force the issue. If the group wants to talk about weapons and other gear and get back to sets later, then I’m good with it.

One of the things, we’re dealing with is it’s basically too late for any of these suggestions to be worked into the next patch. And you folks took months to put together your proposal.

So this is just the beginning in essence of the process for us. We might wind up in the same place you did with your proposal but it’s going to take time and I think right now, we’re basically just in the spit-balling phase that I think you folks were in in the beginning.

Basically, the process is going to take time and though anything we come up probably won’t make it into the patch, perhaps in the one after that, or the one after that, we’ll having something that would rival your proposal.

But for now we have to start somewhere and so this is what we have.

[Free-1746]

@KillerProc-1122

I think it would cool for us to delve into the Shadow set now and see what it needs, but I’m not going to force the issue. If the group wants to talk about weapons and other gear and get back to sets later, then I’m good with it.

You can have multiple discussions going at the same time, all about different items, sets, and so forth. The point is to collate the best, most sound (in terms of design and likelihood of implementation) ideas into a central location (in the OP, in a basket, wherever) and keep the discussion going.

@KillerProc-1122

So this is just the beginning in essence of the process for us. We might wind up in the same place you did with your proposal but it’s going to take time and I think right now, we’re basically just in the spit-balling phase that I think you folks were in in the beginning.

Absolutely. You’re in a great spot. All I can say is don’t disregard the advice Rage and I have offered. Guidance and gatekeeping are essential at every step of the process, and sooner or later, someone is going to have to step up and lead the charge.

[KillerProc-1122]

Not disregarding. It just took a while, as you’ve said yourself for you set yourself up to be one of the leaders of the Barbarian’s Forum. You’ve said that you needed to earn that right through hard work and dedication, you didn’t just one day say “I’m the leader! Now listen to me!”

I don’t want to be a leader. Never have. I’m more of the follower type. I’d love if some more of our more experienced Demon Hunter hands had a bit more influence over the direction the thread takes since they know more about the class than I could possibly learn in relatively short period of time.

But understandably after proposal after proposal was seemingly dismissed out of hand by the developers, they might feel that just someone bringing attention to the class is a good start.

It’s hard not to feel that it’s basically a waste of time after years of being dismissed.

Even at that, folks like dmkt, DiEoxidE, and others that still come to the boards have chimed in and I appreciate it.

I’m not about to demand that they help me. I understand where they’re coming from.

So with no clear leader, not that I think any of us really want one, then this thread is all we got.

I’ll do what I can with the limited knowledge of the game and the skill it takes to make the class sing with the tools we have, but again, I’m no leader.

This all looks haphazard to folks like you and I understand why, but we’re just a different breed from people that play Barbarian. And I sure don’t want to become some sort of authoritarian leader on the boards.

Not that I’m saying you are an authoritarian or anything like that, but you do exhibit a bit more control over the board than anybody else on the Barbarian boards.

[Drakiock-1135]

@KillerProc-1122

So with no clear leader, not that I think any of us really want one, then this thread is all we got.

Threads that garner a lot of constructive critiques/other posts are indicative to admins/blizzard that topic this requires attention. What needs to keep happening is adding more and more feedback from people that have played DH during the last 19 seasons.

The main disadvantage here is we aren’t even allowed to have a set with stats modified like the WW/Rend. Its just that same old as it was with minor improvements.

[Varadia-1555]

Some earlier ideas:.

Compilation of Suggestions on Improving DH Builds

Since the devs seem to be really taking an interest in community input on class improvements, I thought it would be a good idea to use the Way Back machine and gather some ideas that we have already talked about. We know that we will be getting new sets, and it appears that there will be improvements to our existing gear, so I’ll grab quotes for both situations. I think cknopp nailed it when talking about new sets. Some ideas from dmkt: I’ll be grabbing more as I have time.

[KillerProc-1122]

This is true. Thanks, Drakiok.

I also want to add something else to my previous post. The reason I seem so energized about the class right now and have been able to keep coming back to the thread and basically feed it is I have bi-polar disorder and right now, I’ve been in a mild manic phase for the past week.

I’m not sleeping regular hours and staying up for 24 hours or more. Like right now, I’ve been up for 26 1/2 hours.

This is just a side effect of that. That’s another reason, I don’t want to be a leader. Because despite this looking somewhat normal, it isn’t. I won’t be able to keep this up forever, eventually a crash will come.

Now like I said, it’s minor thing what I’m experiencing and so the crash won’t be a huge one, but I know it’s coming eventually.

[Free-1746]

Hey Idolis, sorry to hear that. Hope the crash isn’t terrible.

With regards to your earlier post, there are many roles to fill in a community. I don’t crunch many numbers because I’m garbage at math and find it dull, but I do have a good handle on organization and game design, so I relegate myself to mostly archival work and design/build advice for Barb builds with which I’m very familiar.

Anyway, sending my best wishes and hoping you’re okay.

[MicroRNA-1507]

@Free-1746

Organize, unionize, strike!

This is a video game discussion forum and not Carnegie Steel in Homestead.

@Drakiock-1135

Threads that garner a lot of constructive critiques/other posts are indicative to admins/blizzard that topic this requires attention.

Agreed. There is a reason why what went on previously/currently with buff requests was so polarizing. Ironically, those who were “striked” as the minority view was vindicated by the truth.

[KillerProc-1122]

Thanks, Free.

I greatly appreciate the concern. Thanks again.

And Varadia, I should have thought to do that. I think some links to threads from the DH Forum in the opening post would at the very least bring attention to what we’re doing over there so that we might entice any DH’s that prefer General Discussion over class forums to join us over there to bring more voices to our discussions.

It’s just a thought.

[anon52517139]

But DH class is effectively broken…if we are too polite in our demands to Blizzard, we will get nothing. We need to be very vocal, and very demanding in getting the best situation for DHs - both in terms of DPS buff and meta group inclusion. Polite people finish last!

[anon52517139]

So effectively, every other build is pretty much melee or very short ranged, and the game is designed around that, NOT ranged classes like DH…if that’s the case (and I do agree somewhat), we’ll never really do any better than we are currently doing. The complete game needs a redesign in that instance, and it’ll never happen. Oh well…

[MicroRNA-1507]

@anon52517139

if we are too polite in our demands to Blizzard, we will get nothing. We need to be very vocal, and very demanding in getting the best situation for DHs - both in terms of DPS buff and meta group inclusion. Polite people finish last!

Why do you think that is true in relation to D3?

How do you judge success?

Was it getting the most powerful buffs? In patch 2.6.7, the title goes to crusaders. Monk also were buffed. According to Blizzard monks=barbs in 2.6.7 (I realize that the consensus is that this seems not true as monk=barbs=WD but whatever).

[KillerProc-1122]

Let try to put this the politest way, I can…

We will not, no…can not get into the meta because it would require a whole new re-work of our class or the new set we get to function vastly differently than our current sets, which is a possibility but unlikely, so just get the “meta inclusion” out of your head.

We’re striving for equal footing on the solo leaderboards.

Would I like for us to be included in the meta, yes. But screaming at the top of our lungs “Get us in the METAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!” isn’t going to get the devs to rework the class from the ground up.

Do you actually think the Legacy team is going to go about a complete redesign of our class?

No?

Then you have your answer about us joining the meta.

[MicroRNA-1507]

Actually, DH can get into the meta as RGK. It just need some buffs.

[KillerProc-1122]

Our damage is static. We’ve got no skills that increase exponentially over time other than with Stricken. So in order for the DH to be RGK in the meta in say 140 and up, the buffs to Impale would have to be astronomical in comparison to other classes that function in the RGK role.

We’d need items that add a buff like Stricken and then combine that with Stricken to be in the meta just like other classes do.

Just sayin’.

[KillerProc-1122]

I didn’t say it was impossible. I said, that there are more efficient classes at RGK. To be as efficient as those other classes, I believe, though I could be wrong, that we would have to have a skill and an item that works with it, that functions like Stricken.

To me, a far more likely candidate to be RGK would be LoD or N6 Rapid Fire and then only if they make some somewhat big changes to how the Rapid Fire Crossbow and Sin Seeker operate.

That would be more likely than them buffing Impale through the roof which would go against their stated goal of 130 at paragon 5000 with every class, in my opinion.

Edit:

And let me apologize right now for going off like I did. dp didn’t deserve that. And he definitely didn’t deserve that from me.

I’m sorry, dp.

[dmkt-1267]

Meta is all about the time to perform a task and the constituents that make it possible. Throwing raw damage numbers at any class/build can make it meta.

Yes, even a zDH could become meta with the right amount of damage buffs offered to teammates.

Will it happen for DH?

I distinctly remember last PTR, testing the Crusader’s set. I wrote up several recommendations for tuning numbers and interactions to help make AoV FotH more powerful and balanced with the build I was playing at the time… Blessed Shield. Myself and others wanted Phalanx, Smite was another popular suggestion for inclusion onto the AoV set.

The next thing you know, BlizzCon rolled around and news broke that a private PTR update had revealed a completely different skill than what the popular threads were discussing: Heavens Fury with an outrageous 2pc buff of 8x.

On some other remote thread in a sea of ideas for this game, I do recall a player suggested Heavens Fury, but that post was buried.

Thereafter, I had forecasted this buff would lead to GR150 solo clears, I did all of the extrapolating, compared it to existing LOD HF clears and suggested a nerf. Some agreed, some didn’t, but at the end of the day the devs did something completely unexpected and left the overpowered edit alone.

So the point I am trying to make is that in Diabloland you cannot predict what your class will be dealt. Ask for one thing, you’ll get another. Impale could receive the same treatment as HF, heck an 8x buff would make it nearly the same power.

These posts are just here for curating ideas, Nev and Matt will find the good suggestions, but they will put their own spin on how they get implemented.

[KillerProc-1122]

Agreed, but it would also, again, go past Blizzard’s stated goal of 130 at paragon 5000. If they meant 140 or 145 at 5000 paragon then I’m not sure what that post was all about.

Look, I’m terrible at math. ECT treatments when I was younger pretty much wiped huge chunks of my memory out of existence including much of what I learned in High School, but it appears to me that the math doesn’t add up to Blizzard’s stated parameters.

That’s all I’m saying.

[KillerProc-1122]

That could be true but there are also players that have already solo’d 130 with Impale with albeit, possibly, more paragon with Impale, so I wouldn’t expect a buff of that size.

I’ve already been proven wrong in this thread once when it was stated that UE would need a 8X buff to do a 130 at 5000 paragon and it turned out to only need a 5x buff. And Impale would need a much smaller buff than that to do the same, I’m pretty certain.