Comprehensive Damage Guide; A Modern DH's Perspective

Read the description of Type B multipliers. He does Marked for Death and the Toxin gem which are normally additive but turn multiplicative (after combining all Type B modifiers) regarding thorns damage (what he’s using). Hexing Pants are in the Type A category and since he’s not providing any other Type A or C bonuses, then it is the only multiplier in that category, so it appears as multiplicative.

Tell your friend to try again with another self buff to stack on Hexing Pants such as a Harrington’s Waistguard.

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Helpful again, thank you Iria, will keep this in mind, gained a lot more understanding about these details in the last days, need to review my gear now if there is maybe some hidden potential for improvement :slight_smile:

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I cannot see on a quick visit as it became less quick on reading, but this should definitely be in a marked postit for all members.
Big kudos.

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Wow @Iria and cowriters. Good read, thank you. I took the liberty to link it in the wizards section. There’s alot of good info for ALL classes tbh.

Edit: @Iria
I have seen the term dilution of dps when investing in additive multipliers. Could you please explain this an example would be golden.
Thanks in advance.

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Well “dilution” with regards to dps isn’t a technical term, but if I had to guess, they mean what economists call diminishing returns. This is true of any bonus that is added (stacked) before being multiplied.

Some examples of diminishing returns include: stacking elemental damage (e.g. with amulet/bracers/SoJ/etc.), stacking certain set bonuses (e.g. discipline for Unhallowed Essence), or stacking legendary powers (e.g. Lord Greenstone’s Fan).

What happens in these cases is that each additional stack provides less of a multiplicative difference and thus yields diminishing returns. To take the example of elemental damage, if you have a base damage of 1000:

  • With no bonus elemental damage, you deal 1000 damage.
  • With just +20% elemental damage (total +20%), you deal 200 more damage (total 1200), or 1.2x times your previous damage.
  • With another +20% elemental damage (total +40%), you deal 200 more damage (total 1400), or 1.1667x your previous damage.
  • With another +20% elemental damage (total +60%), you deal 200 more damage (total 1600), or 1.1429x your previous damage.
  • With another +20% elemental damage (total +80%), you deal 200 more damage (total 1800), or 1.125x your previous damage.

Notice, each +20% elemental damage is increasing your damage by 200 each time, but the relative benefit is less and less (comparing the previous amount).

With regards to additive damage bonuses (what is referenced as Types A, B, and C in the guide), they behave the same way in that (as the name suggests) they are added up before multiplying so at some point, it becomes more useful to stack something else instead.

One very obvious example is the Wojahnni Assaulter buff in that it provides a whopping 3000% additive damage to Rapid Fire, essentially making any other Type A, B, or C bonuses almost worthless.

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Thanks yet again.
@Iria could you look at your example again.

  • With no bonus elemental damage, you deal 1000 damage.
  • With just +20% elemental damage (total +20%), you deal 200 more damage (total 1200), or 1.2x times your previous damage.
  • With another +20% elemental damage (total +40%), you deal 200 more damage (total 1400), or 1.1667x your previous damage.

You have me a bit confused because that seems like an additive increase.
As far as I have understood it it should be
1.2*1.2… so 5 items with perfect rolls would be a total multiplier of 1.2^5
But what you and others mean is that hunting for that elemental boost you might omit other dps like chd, chc and ad.
Please check it out in cause I am all wrong about this because I had a suggestion in mind and don’t want to waste everyones time if it is wrong from the ground :wink:

The game sums up all elemental damage bonuses together before multiplying so you don’t get 1.2 ^ 5 as you suggested but instead add up the 5 different +20% bonuses to get +100% which is 2.0x damage and not 1.2^5 = 2.48832x. What I meant to illustrate was that as you add more of any particular additive bonus, the relative increase becomes less and less.

As you mentioned, at some point, you need to weigh other options of a given affix on an item because of this diminishing returns effect. One such example is regarding Dexterity (or Strength/Intelligence for certain other classes) in that with enough paragon, the added Dexterity on an item isn’t as useful as another affix.

  • If you gain +1000 Dexterity when you have 9900 then this is an increase of 10% damage since (1 + 10900/100)/(1 + 9900/100) = 1.10.
  • If you gain +1000 Dexterity when you have 19900 then this is an increase of 5% damage since (1 + 20900/100)/(1 + 19900/100) = 1.05.
  • If you gain +1000 Dexterity when you have 29900 then this is an increase of 3.33% damage since (1 + 30900/100)/(1 + 29900/100) = 1.0333.

Usually by this point, other options like Cooldown Reduction, Attack Speed, or Area Damage are better on an item than +1000 Dexterity.

Just remember that the Type A, B, and C, multipliers listed in the guide sum together before multiplying while the other types are individual multipliers (after combining them individually as in the case for elemental damage).

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Thanks a million, as you saw I got that ALL, wrong. Tricky sometimes, and unfortunately my whole idea went flushing…
Sending beers :D, your above 18 I hope.

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Thanks for all the info, Iria.

I wish I could understand it. That’s not saying you didn’t explain it well. Because I think you did.

Just my own inability to make sense of equations no matter how well they’re explained.

I’m glad as hell that this information helps so many people.

You’re awesome, Iria. Don’t let folks tell you different. Truly!

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Updated the OP to include relevant patch 2.7.0 changes:

  • Changed Gears of Dreadlands 6-piece bonus to 15,000%
  • Added Blackthorne’s Jousting Mail to Type D multipliers
  • Added warning label to example in section 3.5 to state GoD6/CC3 is defunct
  • Added or adjusted certain follower skills in Type B and Type D multipliers
  • Changed some area damage comments due to the pierce cap limitation introduced
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:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:
:sob: :sob: :sob: :sob:
:poop: :poop: :poop: :poop: :poop: :poop: :poop: :poop: :poop: :poop: :poop: :poop:

Excellent guide! Thank you!

FYI, in section 2.3, the graphic you posted for Simplicity’s Strength is instead that of Depth Diggers.

Also, how does one learn which items, skills, buffs, etc. fall into which category in the first place? (Asking for a friend, who may or may not be a wizard.)

Updated the OP to fix a few things:

  • Fixed a typo in section 2.3 regarding Simplicity’s Strength
  • Changed topic title (titles cannot exceed 60 characters now).

Mostly though empirical testing, but there is a general pattern most things abide by:

  • Type A multipliers directly increase your character’s sheet DPS
  • Type B multipliers encompass most monster debuffs but some do not have visible graphics
  • Type C multipliers show up in the details tab next to relevant skills
  • Type D multipliers show up in your details tab next to particular elemental bonuses
  • Type E multipliers are not visible directly (except bonus to elites)
  • Type F multipliers are not visible directly

What isn’t obvious is that types A, B, and C are added up together (in the case of thorns, A and C are added up and multiplied by the sum of type B multipliers). These kinds of things have been discovered through testing.

For wizard-specific things, you may wish to check out the maxroll.gg website with its d3planner tool. You can see the mathematical formula by checking the skills section after you have your gear setup to see which multipliers are in effect and how they add up.

Thanks again for spotting the Simplicity’s Strength typo.

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Update:

  • Added a subsection in the Frequently Asked Questions section on ethereal weapons in season 24.

Since ethereal weapons are likely a one-time seasonal event, I did not add their unique powers to the list of other multipliers. Instead, I described how each of the new affixes works.

Sorry for the late update, I had to regain my trust level 3 status before I could update the original post! Since it contains links, I cannot edit it without this status!

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You’re one of the people who should have perm TL3 @pezraider

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I don’t have TL3 access again so while I grind the forums again, I’ll just put some minor tidbits of information regarding the 2.7.2 changes.

  • Sliver of Terror: +12.5% damage per skill on cooldown up to a maximum of +75% which is multiplicative (1.125x–1.75x) with other sources (Type F).
    • The ring of fire proc is based on GR difficulty and does ~60% of a yellow elite’s HP over the full duration.
    • The lightning & fire 50% bonus with 3+ skills on cooldown is added to your elemental bonus (Type D).

  • Shard of Hatred: the damage boost and penalty are separate multiplicative multipliers (Type F).

  • Fragment of Destruction: does not apply any damage multipliers directly.

  • Essence of Anguish: does not apply any damage multipliers directly.
    • The poison debuff of 50% damage taken is an additive (Type B) multiplier, but the player must have a source of poison damage to benefit from it (e.g. poison damage on a weapon). It also doesn’t stack with multiple users of this shard.

    • The explosion on kill is equal to the last hit that was used to kill the target (only one explosion per attack even if the same attack kills multiple targets).

  • Remnant of Pain: does not apply any damage multipliers directly.
    • The cold damage buff is multiplicative with other sources (Type F).

  • Dregs of Lies: the pet damage boost and damage penalty are separate multipliers and the damage penalty does not affect pets at all.
    • The stacking buff is additive to itself (add up the stacks) and multiplicative to all other damage (Type F).

  • Stain of Sin: the damage penalty is multiplicative and the damage increase to elites in the pool is additive (Type B).

That pretty much covers all the relevant damage effects for the soul shards. The only other changes are that the Shadow 6-piece bonus now has a 34.33x multiplier to subsequent targets (the initial targets still take 101x), the Marauder 4-piece bonus no longer boosts sentry damage (which now are boosted by the 6-piece bonus), and lastly, the Bombardier’s Rucksack now has a multiplicative (Type F) modifier for Cluster Arrow.

I will update this information in the OP when I get TL3 status back someday.

Special thanks to the Maxroll team for providing a lot of this information on their website.

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Hi Community Manager:

The rollback has been unusable for more than one year. Can you please inform D3 Team of that.