Yeah gloves of worship is a very easy power buff, worth like 1-2GRs. You put them on follower, drop sages (you have 2x db from altar already, don’t need 4x). Also need oculus ring (85% roll, important!), and ofc nemesis and fot.
You get a random of 4 shrines: 25% ias, 25% DR, a bit of move speed (and pur?), and last XP buff. We want the first two mainly, and if you press potion on cool down (30s), you’re likely to get both first couple minutes, and with the gloves it’ll get refreshed long before it times out, so you’ll have it the rest of the rift. You see the buffs on the buff bar, frenzy is that angry eye, and defence is a shield. Once you get the frenzy shrine, it’s better to hold the potion a few seconds and press it 3 seconds before your damage cycle, so that the 7s triune circle can give you the damage buff through the damage cycle.
I think that might’ve put you a couple GRs back. I think I looked at your gear at some point last season, sorry I didn’t pick up on the missing AD. Try following the maxroll guide with only one ias roll, rest AD, and I think you’ll have an easier time.
Honestly I’m confused here too and it feels like some of you confusing tickrate (tick damage sequences per second) of the channeling spell with the proc coefficient, but perhaps that’s just me. Have I read all of this wrong, or have you guys edited stuff?
Use the non-ancient, as far as I know legendary power is multiplicative. Roll one of the affixes to 20% Area Damage, and you should be good to go. Only when you are very low at paragon levels (under 1k something), you may consider picking the low legendary power over the highest one for the sake of high main stat and vitality gain of Ancient grade items.
Extra from maxroll:
The Damage and Damage Reduction are applied immediately when you start channeling and the refresh rate of the buff is based on the tickrate of the channeled ability used, meaning there’s a delay before you lose the buff after you stop channeling.
i haven’t played this build myself, but as iron rose is causing so much confusion, I went and read the maxroll guide, and the answer is right there, formula and all. None of you thought of reading the guide?
I played much much more Necromancer in this game so far. This season, I got the best non-Primal Iron Rose so far (BTW, I have seen a Primal one on a streamer with the same stats), but they are really really rare)
I was pretty good at math in my youth, but that was a long time ago, in a galaxy, far, far away LOL!
yes, 25% is better.
I have long used FOT, nem and occy it’s just the gloves of worship I am being stupidly stubborn about LOL. Refresh me, every time I click on a pylon in a GR, there’s a random shrine affect that can proc from gloves of worship, right?
Oh, it’s from potions? I thought it was from clicking pylons when wearing the gloves?
yeah, will give it a try. Still have so-so gear atm and a long way from final pushes. Have hit a GR139 with 5 minutes to spare (was a good set of maps to be honest) at p1250, 1 singled augment at rank 111 and lgems @ 135/136. I feel that with a good GR, I can probably hit GR141 “as is” (now p1350 and slightly better helm/krysbins for a bit more DPS). I’m on console btw, so you may not have looked at my gear last season now that I think about it. This was my character/gear last season:
https://maxroll.gg/d3/d3planner/539511795
so superb gear.
Just a question - the 6 piece TO set, gives you all runes for siphon blood and blood rush. What happens if you select a rune for 1 of those skills? Does it create any issues or bugs or you still get all runes as per the 6 piece set bonuses?
I also see that the have the rune for Frailty set to “early grave” in s33 rather than “aura of frailty” that was recommended in s32. If I understand correctly, once a monster hits 18% of life, it triggers and they auto die. I don’t know if that works against RGs or not. I kind of like area of frailty for the extra radius for the curse. I’d rather have a larger radius at auto kill monsters with 15% health, than lose radius for a few % higher auto kill rate. I highly doubt that 3% extra is going to make much of a difference, but maybe I am wrong. People seem to treat maxroll like gods that can do no wrong, but I am not convinced and don’t necessarily blindly trust them. To each their own.
I see that swift harvesting passive increases the attack speed of siphon blood by 15%. It’s hard to judge things with their d3planner since it doesn’t show APS when hovering over the skills for this build. I don’t know if IAS on gloves/weapon/CoE and this swift harvesting passive bonus of 15% is enough to push me over the 2APS or not. The tool is very lacking imho. Since siphon blood triggers DN, it should be the breakpoints/APS for siphon blood that dictates dmg and the breakpoint table for the DN skill is irrelevant. Changing the swift harvesting passive doesn’t alter the breakpoint for DN skill too. I don’t really have the confidence to manually calculate things to see if it should change the breakpoint or not, but I strongly suspect that it should. But, I digress. For giggles, I changed their d3planner for the build to IAS vs AD on gloves/weapon/CoE and the breakpoint for DN improves but not obviously hitting 2 APS.
I don’t know if the shrine for 25% IAS will be enough for me to hit 2 APS with just IAS on krysbin’s. And from what I can see, d3planner doesn’t factor this in, so I can’t easily tell without doing the hardcore math for it all, which again, I don’t have the confidence to do. It’s just going straight over my head LOL and making my poor old brain hurt.
As I said earlier on in the thread, I have a strong preference for IAS over AD as it’s always on, rather than a 20% proc chance. I suspect the dmg evens out and is probably roughly the same for both approaches. But again, it’s hard to be sure of this hypothesis, since AD is fully reliant on mob density and always changing. You’d need a real time calculator that’s constantly recording data during the entire GR to be able to average the AD effect out and it would be highly GR/map compliant anyways, since some GRs have really poor mob density, and some maps too (double whammy in some cases!).
I’m just re-reading the altar of rites maxroll guide to better learn what everything does…I’ll be honest, I very rarely use any potions in my GR clears, unless I take a lot of damage suddenly and want to avoid dying. This was true in s32 and I probably lost a lot of power as a result of not really making full use of this game mechanic.
As I said, I’m a very stubborn old coot who relies on routine and hates a change of routine (ASD/ADHD). Engaging with new tactics or skills in D3 is a hard thing for my brain to accept, probably quite often to my performance detriment in the game.
I must try harder to make better use of in game mechanics to improve my clear times.
edit: when I click on a potion, the effect (mother, mortal, father) is random, right? I can get any of those 3 effects every time I click on a potion. With father, I can get either a random shrine effect, or the power pylon bonus. I seem to remember Jazz explaining it to me early on last season, but finding that thread would probably be a nightmare in the forums LOL (so I could re-read everything to freshen my memory up). 2nd edit: if my memory serves me correctly, the potion clicks stack and are permanent for the entire GR - so getting the triune circles on 1 potion click, and then mortal on another potion click means the mortal effect lasts for the rest of the GR? Or is my memory wrong? And there is no way to force which effect spawns (mother/mortal/father) it’s just completely random and I need to spam potion clicks to give myself the best chance of spawning effects that are beneficial to my character.
3rd edit:
I did, but I admit I missed that bit about iron rose. I reliably take dmg during GRs, especially at higher GR levels in s32, so the bonus dmg to DN from taking 10% life has been happening most of the time for me in GR pushes.
That is what I dream of LOL!
I’m probably confusing stuff. I don’t tend to delve into the underlying game mechanics as a rule. This is an exception for me, as I was trying to figure out if it was possible to hit 2 APS in s33 with the bonus IAS from the s32 ethereal gone.
So, I’ve just spent a few minutes playing with the potions and it seems each click generates 1 of the 3 triune circles every time, and bonus is either the power pylon effect for 15s or 1 of the 4 random shrine effects, with the latter lasting 10 minutes. So, by my math, I have a 1 in 5 chance of getting the frenzy shrine effect (power + 4 shrine effects).
As I said, I haven’t really used the potion mechanics from the altar to any real effect since their introduction, at least, not deliberately. If I take a dmg hit from a monster/elite etc, I hit a potion to heal. But I haven’t really looked at the underlying altar potion mechanics. Now I just need to program my brain to start using these mechanics to my advantage.
BTW, just 1 item with IAS (+ krysbin’s) isn’t enough for 2 APS. I get 1.98 APS with say, IAS on weapon and krysbin’s and the frenzy shrine effect. So, I’ll need IAS on either the gloves or CoE (as well as weapon/krysbin’s) + frenzy shrine for 2 APS. This is good to know, since I could have stacked more AD on my character for more DPS due to the 15% ethereal IAS bonus, at least, if I had used the frenzy shrine effect. At least I’m slowly figuring out how to balance the s33 character.
You get all three every potion click. A random shrine, a random circle and that last thing, a damage debuff right?
Frenzy is the biggest buff, the triune damage cycles maybe another 5% averaged out, so not as big deal, but every piece helps.
So this is going for the 9 frame breakpoint? 11% faster damage ticks and stricken stacks. Don’t think it’s worth giving up 44AD from weapon and gloves/coe for that, but I guess depends what drops you get I guess. It’s a sidegrade, damage in rift or against RG.
Only 7% krysbin with frenzy (you can switch on shrines in D3 planner at the bottom of skills tab) gives you 1.85aps, which is just enough for siphon to tick every 10 frames, and will proc iron rose every 20 frame, so three novas per second. This is what the maxroll guide suggests. Two more ias rolls will bring you to the optimal 9 frame tickrate I think, 18 frame iron rose proc, matching the internal cool down of iron rose. But is it worth dropping two AD rolls?
Actually it says on maxroll to stay below 2.02aps, maybe matching the ICD with 9 frames ticks isn’t optimal and you instead get novas every 27 frames?
So happy with my krysbin, 6% ias, 6% chc, 45% chd. It destroys the ancient one I have on Switch. My ancient and best trifecta CoE is only 189% though, I don’t dare to augment that.
I don’t believe they ever fixed this, but with to high AS, you start skipping some Death Nova proc’s.
I believe that’s the reason why Maxroll suggests the AS they do.
Yeah, there is an ICD of 18 on iron rose, according to maxroll, so I would’ve thought having siphon blood tick every 9 frames would proc iron rose every 18 frames (every 2 siphon ticks) for maximum nova proc rate (but not worth the AD rolls you’d have to give up). While 8 frames would be worse, procing iron rose only every 24 frames (every 3 siphon ticks).
They say in the guide to stay below 2.02 aps, which I believe is the 9 frame breakpoint? So you say that even with 9 frame siphon, you don’t always proc iron rose every 18 frames, due to a bug?
if I’m going from 1 APS to 2, then that’s double dmg in my book and well worth it…1.82 is the same as 1.01…at least, as far as I understand it…
Excellent!
I’m stuck at GR139. Had a crack at GR141 last night, great map, but 2 shielders and 4 juggers…ruined it all. I could have played it better though, and if I had, I probably would have snuck in a clear.
The build just feels weaker to me in s33.
I’m really getting confused with all of this. All I know is that when I hit 2 APS last season, my damage went up obviously dramatically. Not just a small bit. It was noticeable.
I don’t know. I’m so confused by all of this now I think I’ll just give up on trying to understand it all.
Ah OK.
if that is the case, then the million dollar question is, why hasn’t Blizzard fixed it…
I just can’t figure this maths out. All I can do is go on what my instincts tell me, and they tell me that IAS is better than AD, even for this build.
This is not the case for sure. There is no rounding of your attacks per second sheet stat.
From maxroll mechanics section on iron rose:
While channeling Siphon Blood, you automatically cast Death Nova periodically.
These Death Novas will also consume Bone Armor duration (through Scythe of the Cycle) and only then get the damage benefit the same way.
As these free casts are considered procs, they do not benefit from Area Damage at all. Simulacrums will proc Area Damage, however!
Siphon Blood ticks every 21 / (Attacks per Second * Swift Harvesting) frames.
To calculate the APS needed for a specific breakpoint, the formula goes: 21 / (FPA * 1.15) = APS
Iron Rose has an internal cooldown of 18 frames, making the optimal breakpoints with Swift Harvesting either 1.67 APS (11 frames) or 1.83 APS (10 frames).
Typical one-handed setups will range between 10-11 frames tick rate, meaning you can get a Blood Nova on every other tick (20 or 22 frames // 3.0 or 2.72 times per second).
So to paraphrase:
Siphon blood is channeled, but in practice D3 implements channeled abilities as damage ticks every X frames, where the tick rate (ie the number of frames between each tick) depends on your attack speed. High attack speed, fewer frames between each siphon blood tick. Tick rate has to be an integer number of frames, you can’t tick every 10.5 frames. THIS is where the rounding happens, which leads to breakpoints in attack speed.
Each damage tick of siphon can proc iron rose and cast death nova, which is why, at first glance, higher attack speed will give you more novas, through faster tick rate of siphon.
However, iron rose has an internal cooldown (ICD) of 18 frames, meaning it can’t proc again within less than 18 frames of the last proc. The best you can ever get is an iron rose proc every 18 frames, no matter how fast you channel siphon. This means that if siphon ticks faster than 18 frames, then some siphon ticks will not proc iron rose, as the ICD isn’t back up again.
In particular for this build, the guide suggest an attack speed between 1.82 and 2.02, which will give you 10 frame tick rate of siphon blood. This is faster than 18 frames, so not all siphon ticks will give you a nova. In practice, when you proc iron rose, the next will not give a proc, as it’s only 10 frames later, but the tick after that is 20 frames after the proc, so that will give a nova. And a nova every 20 frames (3 per second) isn’t that far from the maximum rate of novas which is every 18 frames.
If you take attack speed over 2.02, you will reach the 9 frame tick rate of siphon. I thought that you would then be able to proc a nova every 18 frame, the maximum possible, which is 11% more often than every 20 frames with 1.85 attack speed (10 frame ticks of siphon). However, maxroll guide says to stay away from that breakpoint and madtom also seems to suggest there is a bug related to this. So now I’m starting to think that you don’t get novas every 18 frames, meaning you won’t even get the extra 11% dps.
So in summary:
APS 1.53 to 1.66: 12 frame tickrate siphon, 24 frame between IR procs, 2.5 novas/s
APS 1.67 to 1.82: 11 frame tickrate siphon, 22 frame between IR procs, 2.72 novas/s
APS 1.83 to 2.01: 10 frame tickrate siphon, 20 frame between IR procs, 3.00 novas/s
APS 2.02 to 2.27: 9 frame tickrate siphon, ?? (18 unless bugged) between IR procs, ?? (3.33 unless bugged) novas/s
Which means, in best case, you’re getting 11% faster nova proc rate by giving up to AD rolls to go up to 2.02 attacks per second. But quite likely the maxroll guide and madtom are correct, and you actually get much less, potentially less damage than the 10 frame breakpoint with 1.83 to 2.01 attacks per second.
that is interesting. I wonder if that is why IAS isn’t as important as AD for this build?
Thank you for breaking this down for me, greatly appreciated.
I will probably go with this then - just IAS on Krysbin’s and AD stacked on gloves/weapon and if possible, CoE.
Interestingly, like I said earlier, going to 2+ APS felt a lot more powerful to me in s32 before. Maybe that bug doesn’t exist on console? I don’t know.
It would be nice if Blizzard’s devs were more open with the players and answered questions like this. A weekly Q&A with the devs for players would be really welcome (and good PR for the company). Implementing player feedback from these Q&As would be an even better PR.
It’d be nice to have the exact mechanics of every detail like this documented in-game, but we both know that won’t happen. Don’t think I could name a single game with that level of in-game documentation. Maxroll and D3 planner is an amazing step up from what is available in-game, and honestly we’re lucky to have that resources.
For questions, I used to just go to one of the good streamers (wudi was my first choice in general, or dieoxide for DH things, but many others streamers were knowledgeable as well), and they’d be able to answer anything, including follow-up questions. With how dead the game is now, I don’t know how difficult it is to find live streamers like that.
They tried the concept with regular QnA with devs in D4 I think? I haven’t been in that scene, so not sure how that worked out… I’m assuming the forum ppl were complaining, as they do about everything, but doesn’t say much.
Seems this is the way, yes. Note that you only get a good breakpoint with frenzy, so clicking potion becomes important.
Yeah, only 2/3 of the damage gets AD, which yes does make it a bit less important. Will still be mostly AD in tight pulls, so still a very important stat. Also, makes it very important to place your sims properly, as they will do essentially all of the damage (through AD) in those big groups.
Yeah, we’ll always have that uncertainty… All this from maxroll is for PC, so yeah…
You can test though, place your attack speed at different breakpoints, record (ideally at 60 fps), and then just count number of novas over 10 seconds.
I’m not really a fan of these streamers. The only 1 I like is Raxx cos he’s chill and DTE.
Well, to be fair, D4 is a steam of piling you know what LOL!
100%. I spammed it quite a bit last night to try and get a feel for it. Frequently checking the game active items to make sure frenzy was spawned and active of course.
Yes, I think I probably suck at this, I’ve never really played much attention to that aspect of the build. I place my own character of course, but I’m not really sure on how to best place the 2 sims. They’re usually quite close to my character, so I would think that would suffice?
I hate uncertainties LOL!
I’d have to figure out what breakpoints…I don’t think PS4 lets you record video stream at anything other than 24fps. I could get the R3 out and set it up on a tripod and shoot at 4k/60 I guess, but I’m a lazy kinda guy LOL!
edit: just looking at the D3 necro TO SSF LBs on maxroll…#1 has near 7k paragon already, after 3 weeks…SSF…
Raxx would know for sure, but idk if any of those ever stream D3…
I think they kindof work like your follower, but with much shorter leach range? But idk, never solo pushed much with necro. Probably best to just experiment a bit, and really pay attention to figure out how they work. Seems quite important.
haha yeah, but that’s why we test!
that’ll do. We mostly want to see if the 9-frame breakpoint procs novas every 18 frames (3.33novas/s), or every 27 frames (2.22novas/s), so it’s a big difference. We’re not looking for some 1% nuance here. Just record 10 seconds of channeling with the 2.02 breakpoint, and count if you get around 33 or around 22 nova procs during those 10 seconds.
Or you can step through frames, and then you can track if it’s sometimes 18 frames, sometimes 27.
18 frames in 60fps = 18/60 = 7.2/24 = 7 or 8 frames at 24fps
27 frames in 60fps = 27/60 = 10.8/24 = 10 or 11 frames at 24fps
So even at 24fps, you should easily be able to tell if each iron rose proc is at 18 or 27 frames.
Probably also repeat at the 10-frame breakpoint (1.82+ aps) as control measurement, to confirm the 20 frame proc rate with the build you’re planning to play, which should line up to exactly 8 frames at 24fps.
Yeah, trying that. Doesn’t seem to be too important where I place, them at least from testing so far. I usually get pretty close to the elite anyways.
If you have the brains for that testing and aren’t lazy like I am
now that’s the hard part too - am I counting mine and my sims DNs? Or just mine? If just mine, how do I tell them apart from the sims?
Now that’s maths that I can understand.
Just cleared a GR141 at just over the 7 minute mark (festering woods, very good map, better than average density, pylons and only a single jugger and shielder). And Dave remembered to pop potions on cooldown and make use of a spawned pylon for the RG. I mistook my paragon, only just over p1300. 2x 125 augments and 1 x 111 augment. So, doing OK I guess. rank 9 for TO set and rank 16 overall.
The build still feels weaker to me than in s33. I know that’s not a scientific and accurate assessment, but it’s my gut feeling. It just feels weaker. I did a bunch of GR130 runs earlier to the 141 and my best time was a few seconds over 5 minutes, with the average being closer to 8 minutes. I was rolling these in 5-6 minutes last season. Took me, on average, around 2 minutes to roll the RG each time (no pylon, no adds on the RG). Again, that aspect feels much slower than in s32.
Iron Rose ICD is 18f, meaning you want to AVOID 18f or anything associate with 1,2,3,6,9,18f for min maxing. 9f simply means every 2nd siphon tick(18f) DOESN’T proc iron rose = 50% damage loss
For this purpose, best BP is 10f hence staying below 2.02 (9f), as close to 1.8x as possible. 1.81 still 10f. These BP is for siphon proc iron rose, doesnt apply to manual DN.
Post altar Siphon DN always gear 12f APS pre frenzy buff and 10f APS post frenzy buff, primarily to avoid hitting 9f post buff.
Since I/we have low paragon, I found out that putting 1000 vit in paragon helped a lot with survival. I did it on Switch and now on PC. Maybe you can go higher with that trick?
It’s not looking so good for my journey if I want to beat myself, had too much fun playing zdh in a team with only p3000+ players. I’m already p1400+ now, and got 5 levels to go to 150. Will push my a.ss off later today.
it’s just the gloves of worship I am being stupidly stubborn about LOL. Refresh me, every time I click on a pylon in a GR, there’s a random shrine affect that can proc from gloves of worship, right?
