Things People Say About D3 That Apply To D2 Too

D3: it’s bad your gear defines your end-game build more than your skills
D2: literally every class has 3-4 items they absolutely need for their endgame builds, like Enigma

D3: pay-2-win marketplace you can just buy your gear
D2: black markets where you can buy powerleveling and gear

D3: personal loot makes people selfish and no sense of community
D2: ninjalooting all over the place, griefing by killing Cow King, telekinesis abuse in PvP to make people drop their gear

D3: skills are too simple and there aren’t enough possible builds
D2: every class only has a handful of viable endgame builds (less than D3 in fact)

D3: endgame is too repetitive
D2: also extremely repetitive endgame, welcome to online games

Like damn y’all, take off your rose-tinted glasses. D2 is a beloved classic no doubt but it’s got plenty of its own flaws.

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Fundamentally D2 is the better game because the journey is better, your characters levels mean something, you can feel your character grow in power in D2, in D3, you can’t at all… The itemization is better in D2 and at one point, D2 was a great game… circa v1.10…

Once v1.10 hit, the game was a flea wees flop-house… most people quit and botters took over. The game used to be a great game but yeah, once Hell mode became ridiculous to run without a Hammerdin… the game became a piece of crap.

Most people don’t remember the changes this game went through over time but I sure as hell do, and yeah, patch v1.09 was the best “balanced” version of D2… every class had at least 3 builds that could solo Hell mode and didn’t require ludicrous equipment like Enigma either… because it didn’t even exist.

Hardcore players made the game the way it is because they demanded more of of a challenge… The dev’s made a mistake listening to them though and ramped up the difficulty to 11… Complete elemental immunities on Hell mode became a thing, some bosses with TWO elements on them… Hammerdin was and still is the only viable class that can destroy Hell mode without breaking a sweat…

D2 has been a bad game for a very long time, the game needs to be re-balanced and re-rolled backed to patch v1.09 for build / diversity sake. V1.14 is in a very bad state right now balance wise… like it’s damn near unplayable on Hell mode without grouping.

And yes I agree with some of the things you said, but you’re looking at it in a very black / white manner… there’s more to it than comparisons.

First of all, your gear helps in Diablo 2, it really does define you in D3… You can clear normal mode on D2 naked with a level 50+ character on maxed skills alone… try doing that in D3… impossible. And again, you’re only thinking of patch v1.10+ … engima didn’t exist in v1.09 because it didn’t have to… your character ran on uniques and they worked fine.

The difference here is that with D2 black markets, you knew what you were getting, the itemization was already fleshed out, Unique items defined your character and you knew that by equipping [x item] it would give you [y result] and it was the best possible result.

D3 was in it’s infancy and people were being abused / exploited financially with the RMAH… the game was in an ever changing evolutionary state and it was insanely risky to use the RMAH… it’s not risky at all to buy items in D2 off of black market websites because you know [x item] is BiS for [y build]… you KNOW what you’re getting and you’re satisfied with it.

Agreed that the loot system was garbage in D2 in multiplayer, but that’s where you trained your brain to realize not to expect anything out of grouping games… grouping was for leveling, soloing was for loot hunting… end of discussion. If they add personal loot in to D2, it will destroy the economy in days.

I’ll do you one better, circa v1.10 most builds don’t even work on Hell mode… there were some amazing and unique builds in v1.09… like melee sorceress… it was a thing. Or even throw barbarian… pretty dope and unique but that all got erased. Also people hate D3’s end game because it’s all about set pieces… do you have the full set? Yes? You win… end of game.

If you don’t buy your gear from black market websites or use bots… good luck ever seeing “the end game” in D2… it doesn’t exist and is theoretically impossible to achieve alone, online… end game would be getting perfect BiS gear for your build, maxing out to level 99, getting your Gheed’s Fortune / Annihilus Charm / Perfect Torch… okay… see you in a decade buddy. :slight_smile:

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Man, such an excellent reply NeoRizer. Very much agreed.

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agreed with all but the last part.
Trading is a thing. You can gear your self by trading alone. You don’t need pay 2 win unless you absolutely want to speed the process up.

Also. if i remember correctly. .09 days had hex’s did they not? all those builds you mention. yeah, hex’s.

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That is why I hate the set gear and rift. It kills a good amount of build. When they release D3, it has so many fun builds because it doesn’t have skill points. And no set gear to limit the builds. The set gears just outvalue the legendary gear and limiting the build.

I had fun with this build Battle.net Login
However, it is more of a safety kite build. So it is bad for the rift, and there isn’t a set gear to support it.

Edit: ok~~~nvm. I just realize the new relative new set Typhon’s Veil work with build. Time to back to D3 (the time is almost up)

Trading is a thing, yes, but you’ll never see some of the items even through trading… trust me. You’d have to get super lucky to have someone trade you a BiS end game item you need for a bunch of crap.

Even then you’d have to give away some pretty godly charms and other niche build items you could potentially use yourself just for 1 really good item… I suppose if it’s all you needed to “complete” a build, then sure…

Also I was referring to the state the game is in now… in v1.14… not v1.09… v1.09 the end game could be reached through normal play / trading and most builds could be viable on Hell mode with budget items.

Also I have no idea what you’re referring to when you say “hexes” or how that effects the online play / builds at all… If you mean hacked items, you didn’t need hacked items to beat Hell on v1.09 unless you were some idiot.

I used to have 1 of each class with a unique build and decent gears, not even BiS and I could solo Hell… I just picked the builds that suited my style, and there were several for each class.

Just to add to this post so it’s not all vague and up in the air, these were builds that were 100% viable and could solo Hell mode EASILY, it was almost a GD joke how powerful they were on v1.09… no bugged or hacked items, just a build based on skills with gears that suited the build, all uniques, no crazy rune words.

Barb: Whirlwind

Amazon: Hybrid Bowazon (Ice) / Javazon (Lightning) …yes you could actually have a hybrid solo Hell because enemies weren’t stupid impossible to kill.

Sorc: Meteorb

Druid: Fury Werewolf

Paladin: Zealot because it was super fun / popular before Hammerdin was the be all end all of builds.

Assassin: Lightning Traps…because it was like an AFK build really…

Necromancer: Skeletons & Fire Golem summoner because Revives were actually terrible at the time… no merc with Godly runewords required either.

And yeah those were all perfectly viable builds in v1.09… with budget unique gear. All gone now. :slight_smile:

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I agree with you and op. Great posts!!!

I never focus on “absolutes”; you can beat D2, Hell difficulty, without godly runewords or even godly gear, it just takes longer. There are folks who have beaten the entire game naked, though I honestly don’t know if that was possible back in 1.09.

My first Patriarch was a 1.09 Zerker barb, I don’t even really remember the gear he had but the damage output was great. He eventually became my MF barb, had about ~550 MF with the Merc, and I did a lot of Hell Meph and Pindle farming during my Grail hunt, which helped me Pat a Sorc and Pally, who was nearly indestructible, but that was work that took a while, all SP.

After reading a lot of posts over the past few days, most people here are about doing things efficiently and fast, and maybe that’s the caveat I’d add to a lot of these “must have” items: they are must haves for speed and efficiency, not for completion.

Which is what makes D2 so superior to D3; to beat a D3 Greater Rift 75, which is the current max for normal play (equivalent to Torment 16 difficulty), you must have a specific set of gear and/or set items, and then it’s really easy. After that, you can do harder rifts, but you just need better versions of the gear you have, basically. In D2, you can beat Hell in so many ways with so many items…yes, easier and faster with certain items, but still possible without them. Which is not possible in D3.

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I highly agree 1.10 ruined what was a very good d2 experience. It’s still a fun game, but it’s longer lasting appeal to keep playing was diminished except to those that play sp plugy and go for the holy grail once they grind enigma and infinity.

Early D3 but not much in D3:Ros.

So true. It is unfortunate that there is a widespread mantra to “keep D2 as is in D2R” when D2R will be based on the current D2 patch. When developers cater to the megaserious gamers (e.g. patch 1.10 and on), it often has profound and negative impacts on the game more broadly.

I question your actual remembrance as hexes were huge. You honestly don’t remember the small charm hex that was vital, strength, or dex?

No I never had to use hacked items to beat Diablo II… ever. I remember them now that you’re mentioning them but I never used them because I felt it was unnecessary / for garbage players.

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There is no comparison d2 is a total different beast compared to d3…
D3

  1. No Open Trade

  2. No Pvp

  3. Easy to gear/lvl

  4. Endgame - Pushing grs for paragon but your competing with a 50+% Player base of Botters making leaderboard gr pushes a waist of time. Bots killed d3 cause the power creep of paragon is out of reach for legit players to keep up with the botters.

             D2
    
  5. Open Trade Market

  6. Great Pvp

  7. Harder to gear in rare items are actually useful an in some cases better than legendarys.

  8. Endgame - Pvp gives you something to strive in mf for even if bots hit d2 hard pvp can still be in reach for gearing its based on your skills in gear.
    Compare that to d3 where endgame bots can grind the paragon in a legit player will never keep up or compete on the leaderboards…

D2>D3 no comparison d3 Sucks with all the broken promises in the game promised Auction house for trade REMOVED.
Promised pvp NEVER CAME …
D3 is a Botters paradise in that ruins the only endgame for d3 for the legit playerbase Imo worst game blizzard ever made in should be buried when d2 remaster comes out… !!

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I like both games a lot. I prefer some aspects of D3 and other from D2.

This is a subjective point of view. I always played D2 solo and prefer the game after the patch you mentioned.

Tell this to the sorcs and necros around.

This is your opinion, not a fact.

So it’s very good that Blizzard took care of the situation very early on.

Again, not only me but many many people played solo, without trading. So your argument about the “economy” with personal loot is not valid.

Endgame in D3 is reaching the highest level posssible on GRs. They are different games. IT’S MY OPINION that the endgame of D3 is better than D2, since you can play with less repetitiveness in adventure mode. In D2 you had to run the same bosses/places ad infinitum, to get runes, BiS items etc. But if you prefer this kind of grinding, it’s ok; just don’t say it’s best just because it’s your preferece.

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Do you feel percentage wise more people bot D2 or D3?

The current state of d2 - d3 id say there both to far gone with bots
But d2 bots can help new players with chaos runs/baal runs
D3 how ever the bots ruin solo leaderboard spots by exploiting the paragon grind .

In my opinion Botters in d3 are much worse because of paragon being so important to hi solo leaderboard pushes.

D2 endgame is pvp in there is a lvl cap 99 so bots cant do much but farm loot in make pvp gear cheaper for peoples in game toons.

D3 Vanilla was absolutely atrocious but the way it stands today is a lot better. Either way it’s apples to oranges comparing to D2.

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Fair points but if you don’t like PvP it weakens the argument. And as for bots, can you prove they’re the ones on the board? Or just assumptions? I know they exist, blizzard took action a few months back and kicked a bunch off the boards, but I think it’s still quite possible for groups to reach the 130-140 range without botting. Especially since they are always adding power creep; this season I hit GR101 solo with 3 ancient items and no augments.

But I think because the games play so differently, it is difficult to compare. D3 offers a more diverse array of end game content, but there’s no reason to do any of it save for incremental stat gains. D2 may be static at the end, but you’ve got so much rare gear and items to farm, it always feels worth it.

What made d2 so great for so long was not based on the pvm grind
it was the end game pvp/Open market trades you takes those away you have a new d3 with better graphics in we all no d3 went to hell in a handbasket in was a slap in the face to those who loved d1-d2 …

I recognize Diablo 2’s flaws, and greatly appreciate them.

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