He has been in and out of this thread for 11 hours, postet 3 videos to Youtube and makes conspiracy theory claims that 1/3 dmg is more than 7 GR.
And you want me to back up my claims?
If he just finished one of his rifts we would not be having this pointless discussion.
You know what? If he uploads a video of himself doing a 133 single target RG I will Paypal him 5 bucks. how does that sound?
That’s not what a strawman means. I’m not attacking an argument you never made, I’m outright disregarding your opinion until you show evidence to match mine. Which isn’t a strawman.
There’s video footage showing that the build is already in heavy fishing territory at 133. Yet in PTR we can see that it could have gone higher than 140. Darkpatator said it himself and he even seemed unsurprised at how fast he cleared a 140 in just a few hours.
140 was not the limit on PTR but 133 is already a heavy fish on live. Again not a strawman.
Now please show your own evidence regarding your own claims.
As I said before everyone knows live can do 133 right now in amazing circumstances—but that’s not the point.
The point is that even if live does 133 right now it will still be, in reality, more than 7 tiers behind what the PTR was capable of.
Hit me up when your videos are up on Youtube.
True. The correct word would have been deflection.
I have no means to do a proper comparison.
You have the gear and paragon and have already invested a lot of time, yet you refuse to invest the extra time to get a conclusive result. That just reeks of dishonesty.
That’s not true.
You don’t need to record more videos to prove it can do 133, everyone acknowledged it can.
As I said in my previous post, it clearing 133 on live with a super hard fish, the best build, and great gameplay is not the point. And it was not the point of the footage I uploaded either.
The obvious purpose of the Youtube videos posted is to show that the build is in heavy fishing territory already at 133. But the cieling of the PTR was not 140.
Yes you can play it better and make tweaks here and there, but no amount of adjustments you make to my videos will make 133 anything but a crazy fish for the live build.
With a crazy fish in PTR, you could have gotten a 144. Not just a 140.
That is true.
But that does not mean that it was nerfed by more than 7 tiers. Maybe it just means that its mob type reliance is insane. Assessing damage with something as flimsy as the Bloodbath rune is difficult, that is why I would love to see a Rift Guardian fight, simply because it eliminates that variable.
not the fun police, the concept police, learn the difference.
i understand the basic structure plenty. 7+ years.
nerfing DOES create diversity, by PREVENTING a Flavor of the Month class of play. FotM play is what RUINS seasons by pigeon holing classes into a SINGLE build that is “viable” while all others SUCK.
a class like whirlwind barb that required timing survival and DPS rounds, should NOT cap earlier than a class like HotA Bard that simply spams right click for the same result.
a class like impale DH that resource starves unless facing hard enough content, should not be balanced against something like sunwoku WoL that just spams attacks and doesnt have to engage in any active resource regeneration, etc.
Holy sh!t what are we really arguing here about? WW sucks again, as it sucked last few years. 7 tiers turns to be more like 10? Oh, colored me surprised, Wastes was always messed up like that because this set was never properly designed nor finished. Predictable part of the GR loss was the Rend part, because it is a simple math. But the moment you pull the plug on Rend and set is back to the same old WW being main damage dealer, you can safely add 3-4 GRs on top of the 7.
Some of you don’t get it it seems. With 200% Rend on lamentation Rend was 90%+ of the damage dealt in the set. Smooth, not laggy play. But when you remove that multiplier from the belt, set is back to what it was. Useless piece of junk.
@Dekraymer
Wastes was always messed up set that could never be balanced well because of the damage distribution. First it was devils 99% to WW 1%, killing trash in 7 minutes and needing 7 minutes for RG, than it was WW 70% devils 30%, than bloodshed took over as big part of the damage dealer, thing is that this set always dealt with damn lack of balance one way or another. Making WW a WWRend build was the only logical step blizzard made with this set in past few years. But the second they took the belt away set is back where it was, and it is same laggy, density craving proc machine.
I will leave alone the fact that 133 right now is completely trash level in comparison to other classes, and a fact that average joe with 1500-2500 paragon will start to struggle 15+ levels sooner (it is the messed up biology of this set, with WW as main damage dealer it doesn’t scale linear with paragon, you need 20 000 mainstat to actually start playing that build properly) . All I have to say is what I said few times about WW.
You have to be a masochist to play it if the belt will not be restored. The only way to fix this set is to shift the damage to Rend.
Exactly. If we use numbers from those DH/Wiz mains of 144-146, the nerf is like a 13 GR’s
No arguments here, I didn’t think a nerf was needed in the first place.
WW speeds would have been awesome.
I put money that 133 wont be cleared under 11k para. The fact that ww damage need area dmage to kill trash and rend doesnt proc area makes it a conflict. Slot area means bad rend dmage. rolling off ww damage to stay alive means nothing dies. Rolling rend on shoulders and chest means low ww dmage and you die. See the point? 7 grift is the direct nerf on lamentation alone. That does not take into account the entire build problems Ulma and S4v4G3 have stated. At the low end this isn’t an issue because damage requirments are low. My speed are about 5 lvls higher but as soon as I go 115+ everything is bad. Please stop arguing with two of the most knowledgeable barbs in the world!!!
I mean you can always just run core zodiac and call it a day. That will be what high paragon players run if they really want to clear high.
Only Rend damage was nerfed by 2/3. Any supplemental damage by WW itself was untouched. Thus the builds overall damage was nerfed at most by that much.
I see a debate on “is it 7 or is it more”
From my perspective - and bare with me here, I didn’t really play Diablo past couple of years - not only it doesn’t matter since build is back to being trash, but also it is more than 7.
7 levels was assumed when Rend was dealing 90%+ of the damage in the build. But again, when you take about 65% of that damage away, you are almost back to the old WW and Rend being only “auxiliary” damage. And the “old WW” is completely messed up set. You guys are almost comparing 2 different builds and this is why it is more than 7 levels. Because when Rend is no longer strong, WW starts to suck again.
Again, if you play the exact same setup as on PTR, then the nerf is at most 2/3.
That is huge, ofc. But it is at most 7 tiers.
I just don’t see how the nerf could be more than 8 GRs. 3x damage is a smidge over 7. Round up to be safe and conservative.
Something else has to be missing.
No, this is where you are wrong. Changing the way of dealing the damage changed the ceiling completely. There is huge difference between playing a build that can deal with lesser density because it has build in nuke, vs playing the build that needs 3 screens of mobs and 3 minute spin on them to deal damage. This is why it is not 7 levels but more because shifting the damage dealing agent to vastly were it was before is basically re-creating old build that had issues.
I don’t have a beef with you, but since I’m pretty well known in the Barb community, I want to chime in to prevent further conflict.
Ulma is one of the best Barbs on the NA server. He’s also one of the best group Wizards, one of the best solo DHs, and one of the most knowledgable people about the game, on any server, period. I don’t say this because he’s a friend and a clanmate. I say this because time and time again, over the years, he and I have collaborated on builds, on theorycrafting, on pushes, on optimizing, and more often than not, his intuition–and more importantly, his knowledge–are to be trusted.
That’s not to say anyone, including him (or me) is right 100% of the time. There are a lot of variables at play in a GR push, and you’re right to look at his videos and say, “Well, this could be optimized, and so could that…”, but please understand that Ulman and I have spent hours on Discord–and countless hours since the PTR dropped–working on WW. And when he says the nerf is a minimum of 7 GR tiers–and likely much more for the vast majority of players–he isn’t kidding. My own tests have confirmed it. The play experiences of many Barbs have confirmed it.
The belt was at 200%. It’s now at 0%.
On paper, that amounts to a 7 GR nerf, give or take 1-3 tiers for variables in how the build performs in density, how quickly the build deals sufficient burst damage, how much it benefits from AD and other procs, and how much fishing or persistence is put into the build. If the belt had gone live with 200%, we would have seen 141, 142, and 143 clears.
Higher? Not sure.
But what I can tell you is that his estimations–which are shared by myself and several other smart Barbs–are accurate given the mechanical and numerical limitations of the build.
Frankly, I’ve lost your point amid the arguing, and I’m no longer sure that you understand the core problem of the build at present: without Lamentation’s multiplier, it can’t load all its damage into Rend, and it if it loads even some of its damage into WW, the build is a janky, uneven mess that is at odds with itself.
And really, what are we even arguing here? That a 133 can be done better or definitely cleared? Or at a certain Paragon?
Of course it can. Meanwhile, WD and DH are 140+. So is Wizard, still. So is Sader.
Jako, it basically is 2 different builds, that’s what I try to explain. When you have a build that deals 100% of the damage via skill x, and you nerf it by 200%, it is indeed 7 GR. But when you have a build like Wastes, it is a whole different thing.
Reason is that when Rend was dealing the damage, build didn’t need to rely on AD and bloodshed explosions, nor 3 screens worth of mobs. When you took the Rend damage away, you basically went back to the old build that needs all that, and because of that you are back to same issues the set had.
My point is that if you don’t change anything about your setup, just play on live as if all your damage was still rend, then you should not clear more than 7 GR below PTR.
That would match the loss of rend damage and ignore the still negligible amount of ww damage (just with a quick d3planner check, with istvans and ambos, rend has ~75 times the dps of ww on live (acounting for lamentation on d3planner still havong the 200%))
edit: had actually forgotten to put rend skill damage in, so now even bigger gap
This is accurate.
The way WW deals damage and benefits from AD and Bloodshed is completely different from the way Rend deals damage.
Ambo’s Rends–the majority of the Rend damage–don’t benefit from AD or Bloodshed. They don’t benefit from attack speed. Only hard-cast Rends can proc AD and even then, we don’t know what overwrites what.
7 GRs worth of nerf may be a conservative estimate. This is what the developers didn’t understand. They saw a static multiplier and didn’t take into account how the build dealt damage and how it will deal damage.
Precisely. How many times we have been thru this amigo? How many times we predicted, explained and tried to make people understand on the course of these years?
I don’t know why, but they always chose to ignore barb mains when it comes to feedback.