cool DH history lesson.
1 Like
Well, considering that the “amazing table” blizzard posted about balance was clear about DH being in a bad spot and then they proceed to ignore it and don’t give anything makes sense that people is angry or wants to give some feedback.
I think the idea of creating the topic was good, the problem is GD is a troll nest and well … things tend get bad pretty fast.
DH community in forums is by far the best community, is just matter of check how calm are things here and the dissaster that are some of the other classes forums, filled with dramas and ego wars, all that clownfiesta of “DHs can’t create a successful proposal idea” is just a lie, sadly our community manager seems to listen the barbarian trolls way too much, so they think they are important and their ago is in the skies, but whatever, this patch is a sad one for DHs, but we have to deal with it and stay calm for the next patch… (ya… i don’t like this situation neither but 
)
I hope DH community stay united and strong in bad times like this one, because unlike the trolls we do the things in the right way, not incitating riots forums, and sadly the leader of trolls has direct influence on community manager
Free get your drama out of DH forums, people here don’t like dramas or ego wars.
2 Likes
Just throwing this out there since she was brought but Nevalistis did like the opening post pretty much on that first night. I think she was in the first five. She hasn’t commented yet and I’m not sure if she will but she did recognize it pretty early.
So I give her credit for that. Whether any of the feedback in it will make its way to the devs is another issue but having the opening post recognized as soon as it was created is a good sign that she might be at least monitoring if I can keep the nonsense to a minimum. Especially when the way I opened it could be seen as me asking for several other threads to be made and it, if read the wrong way, could be seen as an attack on another class community.
So, anyway, there is that.
I know we’ve had our disagreements in the past, but I have been trying to keep all that in the past, but the amount of self righteous irony in this part of your post alone, will probably be completely lost on you.
Idolis, I know you are trying to stop threads from spinning into mud slinging matches, but this kind of hypocritical attitude is what Barbs have been banging their heads against for months.
From what I can see most of us have at least attempted to put the rubbish aside, and be constructive to the topic.
You said it best.
Here’s to hoping DH’s get the buffs that are needed, and deserved, sooner rather than later.
2 Likes
Blizzard already stated that the Demon Hunters (and Necros for that matter) need some major work and they did not have enough time to make adjustments for 2.6.8.
Some things just take more time and effort than others.
Barbarians had to wait for years and years till they got heard and answers to their pleas.
Demon hunters are also waiting for years, maybe their time will come next patch. As a player of all classes, I very much hope so.
Anyway, expressions like “clownfiesta” or “barbarian trolls” certainly will not help your cause.
Idolis here tries hard to keep the thread here and in GD civil. Do not invalidate his efforts.
1 Like
I’d say it went beyond that, but as noted, the game has changed so much since then that certain stances can’t even apply. Personally, I was never a fan of Gloom tanking with RF back then, and a good bit of my philosophy was rooted more in simply being able to survive 3 or so hits before biting the dust. That’s not something I’d correlate to face tanking and just more generally wanted us to more comfortably graduate past T4 at the time without perfect gear heavily focused on DPS. Otherwise taking a few minutes to tickle a pack to death was just never my idea of fun.
My caution of gatekeeping, however, goes beyond D3 or any specific people here. Pretty much any online game I’ve played has a subset of the community that believes they’re among the best and should be pandered to in priority, when it’s often their numbers amount to 10% or fewer of a given population. Whatever happens to that remaining 90% or more doesn’t matter. If you dig deeper, there’s a good chance these same people are using third-party tools that offer an unnatural edge, and this is something that has also existed in D3 through TurboHUD. Or for another throwback, people like Nyan macroing complete gear swaps to cheese the hell out of Strafe.
More generally…
“Don’t forget the little guy…” may be an incredibly vague message without context, but it’s still something that needs to be said. Sometimes they may not know how to vocalize their concerns or even fear getting dogpiled if there’s dissent. I also know there are people out there who are acting in bad faith, and you can see a lot of that when it comes to D4 discussions frequently linked to the desire to avoid anything and everything D3 did. The veil of fandom plays its part in empowering d-baggery, too.
I also worry that Blizzard considering p5000 a baseline to be an incredibly atrocious metric, and even something over p1000 in seasons comes off as iffy to me since it’s not unheard of for people to finish the journey at p600 or less these days. Growth past that very much comes down to how much they multiplayer to get the most out of their time or, unfortunately, bot. Old as the game is and how little legitimately new content there’s been, it’s also not hard to see why people nope out if all they were after was the stash tab. May as well grouch about my disdain of seasonal themes instead of introducing new, permanent content since I’m at it.
There’s a lot that can, should, and should have happened for the class/game. Unlike Free, I’m not really content in classifying certain things into a category of “Never gonna happen, so don’t even try!” because that just gives Blizz an out. Unlikely? Sure. Impossible? Not so much. Being put on the Classic team shouldn’t be considered a death sentence, and if there’s no amount of feedback that can convince Blizzard to go beyond the bare minimum, they need to stop playing coy with all this “we’re listening!” PR BS to salvage 2018’s Blizzcon and hoping to keep us engaged until D4. Then toss us an offline mode patch and let us have fun with modding.
2 Likes
I agree with this.
Also, I think we need to think more globally about recent events. I think most would agree that monks and barbarians were weak classes in terms of solo GR clears prior to patch 2.6.7.
The monk community took a strategy that is more similar to DH, while barb buffs were promoted in a far different manner. According to Blizzard’s numbers, barbarians and monks are “equivalent” (I doubt Blizzard’s calculation using early December’s numbers , but whatever). The most important change for barbs in patch 2.6.7 was actively rejected by the gatekeepers but was thankfully adopted by Blizzard.
If we include crusaders, they asked reasonably politely for buffs in patch 2.6.7 and in this patch were by far the strongest class. Even now, they are rather accepting that a AoV nerf was in order (not everyone, but pretty quiet overall).
With this in mind, I think that the best strategy that proved successful is taking a more inclusive and reserved approach like monks (and crusaders for that matter). During the patch 2.6.7 PTR, monks (and crusaders) asked for buffs that they ultimately received.
1 Like
Barbarians had to wait for years and years till they got heard and answers to their pleas.
Barbarians never waited for anything, they have been part of meta as ZDPS since like season 3 lmao. unlike DHs that were pushed out of meta since like season 2 and they destroyed our Zdps build nerfing calamity and nerfing wolf companion (during season 4 ? i don’t remember exactly). Having a Zdps since season 3 means juicy paragon exp farming since season 3… (barbarian just waited for a DPS build, but they always had a meta spot and probably this will never change).
DH atm is in a terrible spot, because has no real value as ZDPS and neither as DPS (impale has some niche, but other RGKs are stronger and sadly people just don’t want to group with DHs because impale is not strong as HF, so less paragon for DH players (something similar happens with WD i guess) )
@Phoenix
Barbarian forums are on the other sidewalk just cross the street.
2 Likes
Free, with all due respect, why should we, the players, do Blizzard’s job for them? It kind of shows that Blizzard has dropped the ball imho. I get why you did it [for Barbs], and I get why we need to do it for DHs, but in reality, we shouldn’t have to be doing this.
It appears to me that players know the game and the mechanics far better than Blizzard’s very own devs…and that’s worrying!!!
Monks were weak solo? WOL monk was One of the strongest builds…clearing near 10 GRs higher than impale s6 pre 2.6 patch…5 GRs post patch. And, it got buffed with the 2.6 patch, go figure…
Pre 2.6 patch, players were screaming for Blizzard to buff DR, but did Blizzard listen? Nope. They buffed DPS, and not DR. For group players, this isn’t so bad, since they get mega paragon and can somewhat negate the DR effects at higher GRs, but for solo players…we lost out big time.
I guess you don’t feel our pain, cos you don’t run DH - you’re on the outside looking in. I get that you had similar experiences with the barb, but we are in a far worse place than barb ever was. Far worse. As others have said, barb had inclusion in group meta since s2, allowing NS paragon farming. DHs on the other hand, have had to choose to not run DH in group meta (no serious group would touch us anyway, let’s be realistic) and run an alternative character class/build.
This has been plainly obvious for many, many seasons. DHs have screamed for many, many seasons. Hell, we don’t even get blue replies…or replies from Nev. Barbs got that…how could Blizzard not see how bad a spot DHs were in? They’d have to be blind, deaf and dumb. I have the very strong impression that the modern devs at Blizzard hate the DH class and wish it never existed. That’s how I personally feel as a DH player. Neglected.
Barbs and monks were weak in era 11 (patch 2.6.6). See:
Also, I completely agree that the 4 man meta has been to stagnant for too long where 2 classes (barbs and monks are obligatory zDPS. See here:
Do we really need to do this? Crusaders were buffed (overbuffed in fact) and monks were buffed too without all the shenanigans. We should just make solid suggestions.
Yes, I wasn’t suggesting that we don’t make suggestions. I was pointing out that we shouldn’t have to - the game devs should be on top of this with little to no input from us, the players, imho.
I guess I see it differently, since PS4 clears are different to PC clears. WOL monk has been well clear of impale for a long, long time (since it’s inclusion as a build to be honest). At least, on PS4.
Your s16 stats do not match what I saw on PS4 either - DH did better than WD and barb, but the other character classes cleared higher. I can’t give you stats and absolute proof, because Blizzard, in their infinite wisdom, removes prior season LBs when a new season starts on consoles…hell, we can’t even see player paragon on the LBs (it’s hidden), as well as follower items…
My stats were PC where this data is accessible. Frankly, I think the developers have gotten some pretty good feedback already from the DH community. The question is: “What will Blizzard do?”
I may be under the unpopular opinion that simply getting into a group meta doesn’t really fix problems and continues to fuel what’s bad about it in the first place.
Sure, barbs have always been in the meta, probably the most important element in group play, but it doesn’t mean the class was happy with Zbarbing for hours on end. Think about it, what Hack n’ Slash ARPG have you ever bought and played, thinking “Boy oh boy, i can’t WAIT to level up my character and do absolutely no damage and cause zero chaos upon my enemies! Sounds exciting!” I bet no one.
I’m aware that blizzard has no plans on messing with group play which is unfortunate, but it’s a very serious problem when a specific meta comp props up, subbing one or two variants around the same concept, and is 15+ GR’s stronger than any other possible combinations, effectively making everything else obsolete.
We as a whole should want something different.
2 Likes
I proposed a simple solution to this. I forget the precise numbers but you could scale monster hp by 16.2% (instead of 17%) for solo per GR level. That would reduce the difference between groups and solo.
I know it has nothing to do with the current discussion but it was at one point…
The problem with a class choosing a figurehead or even two or three is once that’s done, those figureheads have to keep control of their “subjects”. In establishing that control, a cult like following develops. And their elevation above others instills in them a sense of self worth that goes above everyone else’s.
That’s not a huge problem as long as they keep within their own fiefdom. However, when they go out of it, sometimes they expect that same fealty from other folks in other groups. And even if it isn’t them then it’s their “followers” that wonder why their “leader” isn’t treated with the same respect by other folks.
So then we have things like what happened in the thread the other night where any slight against the leader has to be answered. No way the leader can be at fault, no it’s got to be that other people just don’t understand them.
I’m not trying to start this whole thing over again but that’s the problem in a nutshell. The Barbarians have their way of doing things but I don’t think it would transfer to other classes as easily.
Good for the Barbarians. Really. Doesn’t work so well for other classes though.
It can’t be helped. When I was a pro SC2 player, our managers at EG told us not to post on social gaming forums, for a lot of the reasons you stated. I will say however, that more good than not comes from these communities. The people you are talking about aren’t the majority. Sometimes it takes a few individuals to stand up to the elitist and call them out on their BS. It’s literally how I first came on the forums in Vanilla.
Here in the past, often times top players fought with each other, which was a good balance because it gave elitist less time to belittle players while allowing casuals to rally behind the other top players that had their interest. It also promoted more builds, because you had group subsets trying to “outdo” the other. In the end, the casual base wins out because they directly benefited from the findings due to the inter-class competitions.
Anyways, the things you’ve mentioned isn’t really, and hasn’t really been a big thing here for a few years now. People overwhelmingly help in droves when new players have questions and when ideas get posted, the community itself usually takes the time to respond respectfully. I’ll give you a perfect example.
Idolis. He’s been practically the most important individual for DH’s in the past week. He considers himself a casual. He doesn’t post often. He doesn’t have insane paragon. He wasn’t popular here. He’s never written a build thread, nor have a list of notable achievements, yet there hasn’t been a single DH, vet or top player, that’s garnished as much attention and as many replies/responses quickly as Idolis has in the recent. Dude has two threads that are insanely popular with many interested.
Do you see any vet or top DH players here telling him to sit down or shut up? No. Have you seen any DH’s belittle him for any ideas he’s presented himself? No. Did Idolis expect this at all? No. The entire DH community has rallied behind his efforts. In fact Idolis is the perfect person on the forefront IMO, because he’s more relatable as a casual player.
The narrative can be squashed.
3 Likes
In all honesty, DiE,
I didn’t expect even an endorsement like that. You get it. I’m not trying to be important and the community recognizes that. In actuality what I did expect is for more experienced and knowledgeable DH’s to come to my rescue, so to speak.
What I mean is, I expected to just make a thread calling on the DH’s. Then other DH’s to start threads on the things they understand about the class because really I’m a little more than clueless when it comes to the game.
But when instead, my thread took precedence and everyone started posting in it, vets, “noobs”, casuals, and everyone in-between, I was surprised but also pretty proud that the ball got rolling even if it wasn’t the way I expected it to.
But that credit goes to you folks, more than me. I sounded a bugle and the DH’s rallied. Again, you folks are the real heroes. I’m just some guy with a horn, lol.
2 Likes
Well, DiE, a bit part of the general problem with D3 is paragon and the inequality that it creates between solo and group players on the solo LBs. Being included in the group meta partly helps with this. Doesn’t really do much for me personally, but for many DHs, they want to be able to get more paragon from playing a DH in group play.
I made a psuedo paper for d3 once on a whim regarding emeralds vs rubies in weapons on 2013. While I have no proof they read it, they did slightly buff rubies after that ptr (in favor of the conclusion that emeralds were slightly better). So I think the developers secretly read a lot of stuff.
1 Like