And they are still “one button”, which was mentioned. A build should not rely on paragon points and perfect rolled gear just to , still, be behind other builds. You can push with multishot, and all of the mentioned builds.
Also, Raekor and Ik are behind as well. Heck, imo, they can change ww to not tick so much and so on, just raise the damage up to where it should be.
Uhh… Those are glass cannons and have to watch where they position. Where a Barbarian can endure anything thrown at him and can push through. They have minutes long warcries and don’t need crowd control at all.
While all those glass cannons you mention are not one trick ponies, they have to position, inflict crowd control and time their bursts to sweep, else they’ll fall like potato sacks.
That’s the result of developers trying to sharpen the professions, Barbarians’ zdps traits pushed forward that they left behind in the dps race.
In case they push Barbarian to deal damage properly then meta will change as well. As I said, it all takes gameplay testing and process runs slow when developers can not estimate the reaction at the face of planned changes.
Tell that to the Dust Devils skill rune, I bet developers still have concerns about whether to change it or remove it.
Glass cannons? Invoker can facetank just as ww. Ms Dh as well. Every build I listed can push higher with less gear than ww, so no. There is no question about “glass cannon”.
WTF, so much misinformation being peddled in here. Gonna reply in detail later. Some folks need to do their homework before hitting reply smdh get off the lawn…
lol let these kids argue for a while 
No, no, and no.
Zodiac WW is one of our most demanding builds in terms of gear and skill. I understand that most people think it’s a one-button build, but I assure you, you are quite wrong. It’s not as complex as, say, Bazooka Wizard, but it’s the second most technically challenging build in the Barb repertoire. What’s more, it’s one of, perhaps the most popular, and it absolutely deserves to be a top contender.
When we published our proposal, we figured out ways to make the build powerful, fix Rend, and reduce server lag. You can read more about it here: http://barbarianbuffproposals.strikingly.com/
Factually, unequivocally, you are incorrect.
In our proposal, we advocate for 2x (4.1 GRs worth) as much damage as we currently deal. That is not a stable multiplier–it’s relative, as in every major build needs to deal 2x more damage, and every minor build needs to deal 2x above what it also requires to achieve some semblance of intra-class parity.
The utterly mediocre runes on Wrath do not equal anywhere close to 7 GRs, much less the 4.1 we calculated as necessary to achieve inter-class parity (nor the amounts necessary for intra-class parity between builds that can use it in the first place). The IK’s global multiplier means nothing for Wrath’s runes, much in the same way it means nothing for the always active DOTs of Pain Enhancer, or Toxin, or any other pathetic damage effect.
This is not an opinion. This is a fact coming from one of the two guys for breaking down every single problem with the Barb class and analyzing every possible way to buff damage.
If you think that Arreat’s Wail will provide meaningful damage, you don’t understand how damage works in this game. There are no additional multipliers aside from the IK set that buff it, and that is never going to be enough to make the rune worthwhile. Because if it was?
WE WOULD ALREADY HAVE BEEN USING IT.
And when you reply to folks like Ulma, please know that you’re talking to a Barb who has hit Rank 1 solo and in groups, across many specs, and many classes, many times. We’re talking about hands-down one of the best Barb players to have ever played the game, and easily one of the best players period to have ever played D3.
If I remember correctly, the original 100% wasn’t multiplicative. The current 50% is, which makes it superior in almost every circumstance.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
See, this is what drives me up a wall. Here you are talking to experts on the class and build–among them Ulma and I–and you’re trying to tell us how WW works.
Buddy, I’ve already addressed this above. Better yet, here, read the dang guide: [Guide] Zodiac Rend (Season 20)
Holy…
Where to begin?
I’ve got nothing against Demon Hunters. I love the class! Impale is one of my favorite builds! And you’re right that it’s tough. But it’s also clear you don’t know how to play WW.
Look at this. This is bad. These are bad thoughts and you took the time to write them out and now they’re worse. Let me show you what a good thought looks like:
Try that. But practice somewhere else.
WOT?
What is this nonsense? You don’t even play Barb. You don’t even understand our builds! Of course we worry about CC! Of our 5 major builds, only 3 can achieve perma-Wrath, and the other two must constantly worry about CC. We’re not infinitely strong tanks, particularly if we want to deal damage.
I’m stunned by the level of nonsense being thrown about here. Why do folks who barely know anything about a class or its builds strut in here and try to talk like they know what’s what? Just sit down and listen for a while. We got Barb veterans and experts in here that know what’s what. Just pay attention and learn.
Dang, y’all getting my heat up.
Free you have 177k elite kills and play soft core, I don’t see you as
a expert at all.
To say that WW takes skill is obviously a stupid comment.
Play a class that actually takes skill and play hardcore where
it actually matters.
Btw, just cause you wrote a novel about barbs and the lack
of pushing builds, has zero to do with implementation.
There has been tons of things needing fixing, like the discrepancy
between solo and group play.
I would love them to address this, since I play 100% solo.
Game is old, kind of surprised that you guys think you deserve anything
actually.
Nev said there wasn’t enough time to help barbs situation,
but what she didn’t say, is that the skeleton crew working
on this game, just can’t fix all the things you guys want or demand.
Get in line, there are a ton things need changing, and barb being behind
other classes by a few greater rifts, isn’t a big deal.
Heck, before they buffed barb sets a while back, barbs were like 20 grifts behind,
and WW was like 15 grifts behind HOTA with average gear.
Do you even know why barb sets were buffed back then? Ehem I suggest search old forums for clearing efficiency indicator analyses I carried out:
Before balance patch:
After the balance patch:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/7gv52h/analysisseason_12_data_greater_rift_clearing/
Here is another community work that fixed a forever bugged BK set (bugged from the beginning resurfaced due to “community member” work:
The work I did as well as what Free is doing are community work that caused positive changes for everybody in the past.
Most of you guys’ comments here are all ill intended and has no value.
You are the reason why Barbarians are not getting things done.
Have you even read what was written?
Personal goals in game has NOTHING to do with how much you understand a class…
Free have MANY times wrote about the right stuff about Barbarians.
The thing you write is like telling a soccer manager that, just cause he have played on the field and done horrible, he cannot understand the game itself and manage it…
Barbarians are behind in greater levels, that is a fact.
WW got rend in it’s bonus set and never used cause it is underperforming. That is a fact.
WW requires the best of the best of rolls on gear to do decent / still being behind other builds.
That is a fact.
Raekor needs ramp up time with charge stacks, being the only build needing to do a lot BEFORE dealing damage, even way more time than Archon. And STILL being behind in greater rift levels than others.
That is a fact.
Nothing for 3+ years for the class. While every other class got something, at least, for season 17 and before.
That is a fact.
Nevalistis wrote, that they know about the problems of Barbarians and were looking into it, that is a fact.
You have EVERY class, EXCEPT for Barbarians, getting updates on sets and legendary items to play with new/older builds and they have become way more viable than any of Barbarians sets.
The only thing we got is an item outdated and nothing new about it. And will not help with pushing higher levels.
That is a fact.
We “guys” don’t think we deserve anything. Logically, we KNOW we deserve it.
Go read up on Free’s writting and see the list of years/patches where we were not being given anything, while every other class did.
Before you read this through and just hit the reply button. Go read up on it.
Free is not alone in his writing either.
And I can tell you this, I am not a buddy to Free. We had some discussions on the old forum, but I cannot do anything else but to respect him for his job for this game and Barbarians. He has been fighting and known to speak his mind whenever he wants to improve the game cause of the love for it and for those whom want a more fair and fun gameplay.
The point I was trying to make is, that you guys are taking this to seriously.
Try another class, or don’t.
Go outside, take your girlfriend out to dinner, watch a movie, but all
these nerd rages over a game is ridiculous.
In other Diablo titles there were builds and classes that surpassed others,
but weren’t changed.
So barbs are a few Gr’s behind, so what.
I remember in vanilla where barbs were king for the first 2, to 2.5 years.
Other classes were way behind, so I played a barb.
The game has 7 classes, and this is the way Blizzard designed it.
I think Disney wrecked Star Wars forever, but I am not on their website
crying about it.
So your point is childish.
What is ridiculous is people like yourself, bashing on others for debatting what they like.
It’s like me telling you to stop complaining about something you like.
You defended yourself in a rather non logic way and when you are losing, you then proceed to attack us with another completely statement.
Nobody is attacking you, quit being a snowflake.
The problem with you is, that you don’t like someone
not agreeing with you.
Free might of put in a lot of time, but he doesn’t work for Blizzard,
nor has he any idea how things work in this game’s engine.
Doing math on skills is a lot different then trying to implement them
into this old game engine, that seems to break when things get added.
Besides, there has been tons of great posts over the years with
great ideas, and most stuff got left out.
Go ahead and scream for barb changes all you want, but this game is real old,
and chances are you won’t get them.
Look what we got at last Blizzcon.
No. WW is the most gear demanding, skill demanding barb build. Its clearance ceiling can be higher than wall charge barb. War charge barb may reach its cap tier after few hundred to 1k keys. WW barb can fish for 5k to 10k+ for its cap tier. This build tests player map, mob type, elite affix, pylon knowledge more than any other barb builds. It ties with LON Thorn necro in amount of knowledge requires. All solo push builds tests players on density generation, among it, WW is the most demanding in density required. Watch one of wroboss WW clears and you ll get it.
Builds like Impale is a no brainer. Every granny can clear high with Impale. All you need is fish for low density, high amount yellows and bingo.
“Go outside, take your girlfriend out to dinner, nerd rage”. Those are insults. I never stated that people cannot disagree. What I dislike is, people like yourself. Telling others to hush down cause they want to debate what they like. I don’t like people like yourself, insulting others and don’t even know what they are talking about.
Season 17 = changes to every class except Barbarians, sure this game is old, but they did something for EVERY class except for Barbarians, so no. It’s not about begging for something outside of reason…
Might need to read up on that Free post I told you about before discussing further.
It is correct, just you can’t take it because it doesn’t buff your eyesore Whirlwind. If you think it is factually wrong I welcome your attempt to foil it in a mathematical way. We’re talking about IK Set here, it benefits from everything.
So it is correct?
So… Mortick’s increasing all damage by 50%, adding activation burst for 3400% weapon damage (which would be effectively have 1.5x due to Insanity skill rune) also having 300% weapon damage area blasts for crit triggers (which would be effectively 1.5x from Insanity and your crit multiplier of average 5.0x)… are not enough? Even when you throw Immortal King multiplier in?
It seems like a more than +100% increase in raw damage for me if you can upkeep WotB which is easy for IK Set. It will take time 'till they buff your favorite build. You have no idea how game engine works and what it can handle.
IK set increases all damage. Those can be pathetic DoT effect for your spin-to-win but they’re worthy for any Set that increases all damage. Do you play all Barb specs at all or you’re just expertised in WW?
He skipped a simple detail and I couldn’t care about a player’s rank. I won’t praise him if he cuts in without reading, nor I care about what he achieved in leaderboards.
He supported you, because he thought you checked facts yet you’re just being stubborn on the most horrid server lagging spec not getting buffed yet.
Then… use it? Oh wait… You’ve been using a WW spec and wanna insist on it. Okay…
As I said before, if they gave you Mortick’s they should’ve been considering redesigning WW or giving it a buff but that won’t come hastily. They won’t promote a WW-crazy among Barbarians for their servers to suffer the consequences.
A player’s word means nothing to them when they have not even a tiny idea about how coding or engine works or what it can handle. What you did at that suggestion site is just nothing beyond being a chair developer.
Calm down. They heard you but they have other plans for it. It won’t come hastily, they won’t buff WW barbs for 999999999% damage for you to wreck a havoc in server calculations. I’m sorry I can not show empathy for one of your favorite video game class specs not getting buffed yet. You made your case, they clearly heard your woes.
And your knowledge is lacking, to say the least.
You have not done any reading have you? Free is not alone in what he is saying and they all calculated very carefully the math for this in their written essay about it.
Those calculations come from the math numbers Blizzard themselves have provided.
Free also talks about Barbarians entirely, not ww alone.
This subject was aobut Morticks brace and someone mentioned ww. He has talked about Morticks brace as an entire item for all builds, which you also can find under general…
You might need to go have a readthrough before bashing on others that actually knows what they talk about, compared to you.
What you deny or didn’t get is, they can not move further in a haste. You made your case and I’m tired of your “WW buff or riot” manners.
Do any of those people that gave the essay have any knowledge on the engine or code of D3? You get a buff but it sounds like you’re in denial about it. For what? Why? Why exactly you refuse it being a buff?
I don’t even play Barb, I don’t have any place of #1 in leaderboards nor even cared about LB, but I believe I recognize a buff when I see one. I’m sorry. Am I not “worthy” of discussing here? Mind your manners, really.
What you’re talking about is a simple math calculation here. In case he did the math of such IK spec, I’d like to read it. If he has many people around him, I guess they can run a mathcraft. You can say “worthless” “trash” “ww buff or riot” whole day, I’ll just laugh at that. Provide mathcraft that Mortick’s Bracers is not a good constitute for IK Set spec; prove that it doesn’t improve effective damage by 100%.
You simply got a buff yet can not take it, I don’t get this. What is “factually wrong” here? Your manners or developers? What sorta euphoria you’re in? Engine is old, and developers have to plan further before diving in. Mortick’s is clearly a buff for IK set and there’ll be more to come.
If you think that’s not the case please stop spreading salt all over the place and prove they are not working towards improving Barbarian class. Give us a reliable hint why they should left the class for good? I still think your manners here is a good reason.
Where is the buff exactly? All you see is some numbers, but never took the chance to actually read and calculate how it is going.
Again, there is several threads that calculate this for you. Ignorant really, to not know what you talk about.
And outdated item that never got anything new on it, is not great.
It’s like giving you an yellow item, back when the AH was a thing and say “oh this is a buff for you”.
Do you know what happened in season 17? Updated legendaries to support new/update old builds for every class except for Barbarians?
Did you read up on Free’s post about Barbarians not gotten anything the past 3 years other than some small things EVERYONE got?
Keep on laughing, cause I can assure you, with that rubbish you post, you sure as heck aint the only one doing so.
Like the paragraph I wrote above? IK set improves all 3 damage based runes and one of them is a crit trigger, it’s natural that one player got 6-7 more GRs from his IK HotA. You have no idea how things work yet have galls to call me ignorant. I call it a self-reflection.
It’s for IK set.
Nobody said that.
Because they have the most visual clutter and damage tickrate based specs. WW didn’t get anything good because it’s the biggest offender.
Charge is at a comfy spot, HotA is fine, only WW got the short stick from this whole deal. You seem all pissed because your favorite spin-to-win spec didn’t get a buff.
Here’s the follow up for those words:
You want me stop laughing? Provide mathcraft or tell me how Mortick is not a buff for IK Barbarians? Better yet, do that after you tried it on PTR… Oh wait… You don’t have any IK Set Barbarian and keep trash talking it because it didn’t fit you? That’s the whole problem here?