Hey, I was curious if anyone knows roughly how much lower the blades only spec is in terms of GR’s? I enjoy the play style more on the blades kind of like old HPS on DH"s. I have quite a few pieces to empower either way and I can play the MI build just fine, I just like the play style of the up close build with massive attack speed. Just curious how badly I would be gimping myself. I tried to search on the LB’s but I couldn’t find anyone even running the variant.
Probably 5-10 grifts. I haven’t done anything extensively though.
Not at all, look up the guides on maxrollgg, attack speed is super beneficial to Firebirds now not gimping the build like old version. True no DW = no super 4.25x mod, but compensating that with more attack speed makes up for a lot (obviously not all).
Try my version https://maxroll.gg/d3planner/190726182, utilizes EF to reach 8 FPA (7.5 APS). You don’t even need all or perfect rolls, helpful on RG but with Stricken at those breakpoints they don’t last long at all. I was running GR100 speeds sub > 4 min with no augs para 800, crap gear, only 1 ancient (weapon).
Of course push the Mirror images naturally do better, especially now working back to normal (absolutely awful for speeds vs blades before hotfix) but it’s definitely not 10 GR’s weaker that’s for sure. Plus the extra tankiness with the shielding boost is very nice, and no getting annoyed at images not attacking the RG which obviously is much better for speeds, I find it way less frustrating, more lag friendly and a lot funner as you were saying with the blades style.
Enjoy =)
Did some more runs after the hotfix and it’s clear MI is back to the advantage in pushing, comparing with equal times it cleared about 4-5 GR’s higher than my FB build, however comparing to lower than 5 GR’s of max push the times favored blades, likely due to the advantage EF and F&R has on trash and the RG constant dps and stricken stacking.
ask I understand it, it’s about ~4 GRs lower, or roughly 86% less damage, I think. In effect, it would need another 100% damage multiplier somewhere.
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Lower then 5 gr’s of max push, meaning what level? Looking at your gear, I doubt you’ve gotten much further then 120. Basically means your perspective of where it can be on the high end is non-existent. If you’re not interested in pushing the LB, then manual blades is fine, otherwise, it’s a waste of effort. I also found it hard on the hands when I did use it.
Best guess to make Blades viable is to throw “signature spells do 125-150% more damage” on Shame of Delsere (or something). Maybe Depth Diggers could work too - and I think it’s completely fair Demon Hunters could come up by 5 tiers. I don’t know which other class currently uses Depth Diggers offhand, if any.
If they touch SoD it, then:
“Signature skills deal triple damage, attack 50% faster and restore 9-12 Arcane Power”
But how would that help within Firebirds?
For the flame blade variant? Seems intuitively obvious. Don’t know the breakdown of how much % damage Flame Blades accounts for. I would think it was 50%, but if it’s lower, particularly much lower, I’d have to think of something else.
This is why I was wondering because I actually don’t know. Never tried to play the Blades like that. I was just looking at that build and assumed the brunt of the damage still comes from Ignite/Combustion. Simply because Spectral Blades just hit at an insanely high rate with all those attack speed buffs - I could be completely wrong, though.
Giving the extreme benefit with all melee increases alongside 5x multiplier for attack speed, also considering 3x hits per swing, it gets 1.5m% damage. The damage from the set itself is around 7.65m. Basically, the blades don’t do damage. Effectively, a wand of woh has the same damage, but with a deathwish. So EB would do 4.25x more damage then the blades.
Yes that is something I have been wondering too, I do use it manually since it is yet another damage bonus. What I was wondering is if the blades provide an additive or multiplicative damage bonus.
That I suspect something that benefits the FB.
@Venaliter I doubt any multipliers to the blades will do anything, I say this with caution as I am unsure to be honest.
What could greatly benefit the flame blades in the FB would be utility as a larger range, a cone area of effect or a circular hits all enemies around you let’s say 15 or 20 yards range.
You’re correct, that sounds more accurate as there’s probably about a 1-2 GR difference in my current gearing since I just switched it over. So safe to say 4-5, 100% is correct.
However, I wouldn’t like to see that buffed as I’ve stated it’s much more efficient on speeds than mirror images, so then everything would just become manual blades instead of MI, killing off that build entirely. Maybe 50% then?
Lol yes as I’ve stated I just started playing it and haven’t played much this season but my last few were past 120s so I’d know what it would take and this build could definitely take you there, no need for the elitist retort about lacking gear that I already know. My point was alternatives to the top build. Like I’ve said though you won’t get as much power pushing as Mirror Images or LoD Twister as those builds favor heavier HP fights.
I am saying for speeds manual blades is much quicker, generally speeds are about 5 GR’s lower than your highest solo push, give or take. Reverse archon flame blades are also still the preferred speed builds in groups as well, but this one has enough dps to not rely on it.
And since you started with the insult, don’t talk to a 2k hour vanilla SNS/CM wiz about anything these days being hard on the hands. I’ll laugh at that much harder than you laugh at my casual 20th seasonal 30 hour wiz 
Everything in this https://maxroll.gg/guides/firebird-flame-blades-wizard-guide and this https://maxroll.gg/d3planner/190726182 will show you why you’re wrong on that.
The only thing you’re right on, and which I did not argue is that highest GR solo push still favors MI.
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I play Flame Blades variant, albeit not at a high level (p1100). I feel it’s 5 GRs behind MI, and others here seem to think the same so that could be right. I’ve strictly been using it for speeds and hold my own against your average MI player. I fall behind if they’re able to directly target the elites because damage is definitely much higher on MI. Otherwise I’m the one melting them.
Personally, I play it because it’s just plain more fun than MI. It’s still a very strong build on its own and is right up there with any other top build. You just might need to work a little bit more. Getting it on par with MI with a small buff would be wild.
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ouch… 
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Hmm… Not realy
As for me, I did the 137 in ~11:45 an still choose 115-120 as Speeds
I took base damage of said skills and just multiplied by the multipliers. It’s not that difficult to figure out.
168% x 51 x 3 x 5 x 3
3,000% x 50 x 51
Get it…? I’m completely right in what I said, you just failed to pay attention. Also, I wasn’t being elitist. The only thing that can truly determine whether something is good or not is the top end, otherwise you’re just doing it because you feel like it. Which is fine, but don’t say, “Definitely not 10 levels” when you’re not talking about actual difficulty.
Oh yes I get it real simple stuff, just compare skill and multipliers - trust me thinking like that I totally get where you’re coming from. Fortunately things work differently on the battle field. If everything was so paper easy to compare, builds like SNS/CM would have never seen the light of day. Nothing would have been theorycrafted, just take bigger number and go.
So tell me with my >1k para, no augments, sub par geared wizard how I just cleared a 115 first try in 13 minutes? Btw I cannot clear a 117 currently with the standard MI build, tried three times. 116 was barely 14 minutes after 2 tries. Maybe because you are completely discounting a myriad of factors that would make this build a powerful alternative? Like the amount of stricken stacking done at 8 FPA, the amount of shields and tanking ability? The amount of time you can stand and attack on a target while Mirror images screw around, get stuck, die and disappear? (Btw just holding down 1 button on flame blades, no crazy finger action required). The extra dps gem you have have that’s not wasted on enforcer. I could go on and on…
But no …let’s just stick to the simple things, you’re right, it’s just so inferior since you lose 4.25x DW mod so don’t bother.
However I will report bad news with this, seems to be a bug similar to the Black Hole low/1hp not-dying-bug where you’re doing so much attacks and quick damage that the mobs don’t die and you have to stop attacking, channel again then attack for them to die.
I can confirm this doesn’t just happen with speed buffs like Speed Pylon or any group buffs so that kind of ruins this being way more efficient for speeds which was my whole point of this, being a quicker alternative to MI. Bummer.
I’ll test some more rifts before submitting a bug report.
UPDATE: 116 cleared 1st try, 11 minutes, para 946, 4 ancients, no aug, 9.6k INT
Trash build though wouldn’t recommend if you’re serious about LB 
https://maxroll.gg/d3planner/190726182Definitely do this. I’ve noticed the same thing happen to me on occasion and brushed it off as a random bug. You might be on to something.