It was gone. Too bad that he is the only challenge outside the GR.
Well of course T16 is real easy now because their is a vast difference between T16 and GR150 and the people running GR want to complete a GR 150 as soon as they enter the GRift
even the sets now days are designed to do GR 150 so why can’t we play everything in the game at that level
All we want is meaningful difficulty for the complete game and seeing as rewards for T16+ aren’t going to change so you can still run your T16 speedruns without having to work harder for more reward because there is no extra rewards for higher difficulty you get to keep your T16 speed runs and the others can do meaningful content without 1 shotting everything
everyone wins
And besides what killed diversity is the GR150 in the first place not the ever increasing Torment levels to match the ridiculous GR level in the first place
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better to make t16 harder and leave 1-15 like it is
Because builds stack multiplicative bonuses, this would hit some builds much harder than others. 6-pc set builds that rely largely on one big damage bonus would be hit the least.
Scaling all gear bonuses down to reverse power creep might be a theoretically ideal solution, but it would be incredibly complicated to balance, and it would cause other problems (e.g. accounts with high lvl gems and paragon, which would now be unattainable for others). Not something I would expect to see in the game’s current maintenance mode.
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Just scale down the gems as well. And delete the paragon system ^^
Not expecting any of this obviously.
Here’s what will happen!
“Cool! It took 15 to 20 min to kill Maltheal! Man that was awesome! Let’s do it again!”
And somewhere between the 5th and 10th, the novelty wears off. “You know what? It sure would be nice if the rewards matched the effort I put in. Hey, Blizzard, buff the rewards!”
Blizzard buffs the rewards. “Thanks, Blizz!” So you go back run Maltheal another 5 or 10 times. “Man, it’s pretty cool to take 20 min to kill Maltheal and get those juicy rewards, but hey, you what would be great? To get those rewards in less time!”
“Hey Blizz, buff me so I can run a little faster, I sure do like those rewards!”
BUFF, BUFF, BUFF…
“Thanks, Blizz.” Goes back to running a 150 GR. “Oh man! This sucks! GR 150 is too easy!”
“Hey, Blizz, can you please raise the GR cap to 200! (or some ungodly number like that)”
Blizz somehow figures out to get the game engine to work with hundreds of 10 quintillion damage calculations a second so that every game doesn’t crash thanks to lag.
“Thanks, Blizz! You sure are awesome!”
At some point later, you’re running GR 200 or something. “You know what I miss? I miss struggling running Maltheal. Wasn’t it so cool to take 20 min to kill Maltheal. I know! Hey, Blizz, make T whatever the equivalent of GR 200. That would be awesome!”
And on and on it goes!
If you want to struggle against Maltheal at whatever level you’re shooting for, you don’t need Blizz to hold your hand. Take an unused build because an item might not have a damage multiplier or the multiplier is too small. Build your character around that item or set of items. Run bounties or whatever with it. Cool, now you got your challenge and Blizzard didn’t have to do a damn thing.
Thanks for reading!
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You are obviously 100% right.
The only way to prevent this is Blizzard growing a spine, add in some self-respect, and tell the players NO! whenever they ask for more power creep.
Players and Blizzard creating an endless circle of pathetic game development, should not be a reason for not trying to make things better.
At least if they tried, they might one day succeed, as unlikely as it might be.
Blizzard making the game rules and challenges, rather than players having to come up with their own weird restrictions, is not hand-holding.
Just good game design.
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Could not have said it better.
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It depends on the nature of the challenge. If it is simply a timesink that is bad design. If it is something that reduces a player’s ability to explore and experiment with different builds that is bad design. If it is a challenge that alienates a majority if the playerbase, it is bad design.
I mean, good is good and bad is bad, so a badly designed rule makes for a bad game.
Having a rule is still better than telling people to play pretend, and make their own rules.
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Idolis, I disagree with you. The pace of T16 is too fast and it offers no immersion whatsoever.
When the hardest game mode doesn’t cause you to care about which mobs the game is serving; and the only concern is making all turns at 500%+ run speed while picking up some loot, the content has become too trivial to appreciate.
All I’m asking for is a challenge outside of GRs with some fair rewards to compensate for the extra time and effort involved. Even if these torment modes gave 15-25% more rewards per minute and 30% less paragon compared to running equivalent GRs – it’d be well received.
I started playing this game heavily on PC in 2.4.2. I missed the days when D3 when had rougher content.
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I get the argument. Really I do. But players like you are the exception, not the rule.
And this part isn’t aimed at you but just a general statement to arguments that were brought up in this thread.
It’s funny how many players come to the boards to harp on how great D2 was. Guess what though, it had a set difficulty. And players praised mightily how diverse the builds were from everything from a Paladin built around Holy Bolt that did nothing but support his merc so that it would kill for him, to naked necromancers, or Static Shock Sorceresses.
All that diversity came from the fact that folks took builds that were suboptimal and played them because they were fun.
But now we’re different. Now, most players are like “If it isn’t efficient, then I’m not playing it.” I don’t know where that shift took place and but it is evident ever time I visit the boards.
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I agree in a sense. But exactly because D2 was so easy, even the suboptimal builds were not that far away from the best. Unlike in D3.
Which is why imo the best approach is; capping rewards fairly early, so a lot of builds can do the content at the difficulty that has the most reward efficiency.
And have some difficulty levels above that, solely for people to challenge themselves (including leaderboards) with no additional rewards.
Best way to both have lots of build diversity, and challenging content, at the same time.
You can’t say D2 didn’t have its efficiency-mongers, either. There’s a reason people sought teleport, either as a Sorceress or through Enigma, because it improved boss farming time exponentially. When cow runs were the rage, you had people wanting javazons and other optimal crowd murderers to make the runs as quick as possible, too.
Personally, I wouldn’t say D2 was well-balanced. You might have been able to point at a combination of gear/skills and think, “That’d be a fun build!” but Hell had a way of ruining a lot of that novelty through immunities, or paradoxically, things like upgrading uniques to their next difficulty tier making them less desirable due to added stat reqs.
As my last post otherwise affirmed, though, the GR150 cap needs to stay. A squish and rebalancing would be the best outcome, among other tweaks I noted, but it’s also the least likely to occur because of the effort required.
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What I meant was, not that I’m in the majority, but that this game can be everything that D2 was, if players got away from “efficient or bust” and back to, “yeah, this is going to take some time but the build is fun because it’s got a skill I like in it or this item is neat so let me play around with it.”
What I’m saying is I’m with you as far as content should be challenging but a player can make content challenging on their own without Blizzard doing anything.
I’ll just throw out an example. A thread in the DH section talks about the Shadow Set dungeon. And folks (like me) bring up how you can make it harder simply with a choice on the weapon and a rune in the skill, or make it a breeze by equipping another item and switching a rune and adding a skill that looking at the requirements one would be fooled into not using.
I tend to run the first option. Because I find that extra difficulty to play in it but I can if I desire run the second. It’s a choice to be made by the player. The rest of the game is like that too. A different choice in a rune, a different item can make all the difference and add that extra bit of difficulty without folks relying on Blizzard to make that choice for them.
Edit. sorry added in a not in the first sentence, typed too fast. Edit 2, removed it because I got it right the first time. lol
Those players are not permitted in public games. If your build wasn’t authorized by a streamer, you get kicked instantly. This goes back to my complaint against the “solo is a choice” excuse.
If you can find a way to convince the community to be less toxic toward players who enjoy the game their way, I will be very happy to hear what it is.
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The pacing for T20 would only be slowed for a short amount of time, before Blizzard inevitably buffs builds to once again increase the pacing. We have literally seen this happen time and time again.
That said, I would certainly love for Diablo 3 to have campaign mode and adventure mode’s non-greater rift contents to be challenging and rewarding, however it shouldn’t be through tacking on more torment difficulties as those are just going to be followed up with more buffs that would just invalidate the whole challenge. As others have said, it’d be better to reduce and rescale the existing difficulties.
That said, it probably wouldn’t matter as sadly there’s the mindset that some players have (that’s seemingly shared by Blizzard), that the endgame of Diablo 3 is greater rifts and that every other content is just there to farm materials and such shouldn’t be challenging. That’s why I hope that Diablo 4 doesn’t do the same with Key Dungeons, and instead there would be a variety of contents that as equally challenging and rewarding as possible.
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As far as being kicked from pub games. There’s changes one can make that have no effect on kill speed but can make a set more difficult to play by removing a defensive item for something. Now you have to play a bit more carefully but it has no real effect on your efficiency as kill speed or move speed is still met, I’m not seeing folks getting kicked because one item is different. It’s the equivalent of running gold wrap, avarice band, and BotH. It’s got no effect on your efficiency but you sacrifice one thing to get another.
This game is in maintenance mode. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for them to make a final extension to T20 (or upscale T16) and then let it be without making any new significant buffs. They already have the same issue with the GR150 cap, and they have indicated that they will not extend it or extend power creep. D2 reached its ceiling, so there is no reason that GR150 and T20 could not be the ceiling for D3.
At the moment, T16 is trivial even for low-tier off-meta builds. They could at least bump it to =GR 130 and there would be no outcry for a buff.
I thought about this about 2 weeks back on a similar thread.
T10 = 150
T9 = 140
T8 = 130
T7 = 120
T6 = 100
T5 = 90
T4 = 70
T3 = 50
T2 = 30
T1 = 10
Master (100% more difficult than Normal)
Hard (50% more difficult than Normal)
Normal (0% difficult)
Or maybe…
T10 = 120
T9 = 110
T8 = 100
T7 = 90
T6 = 80
T5 = 70
T4 = 60
T3 = 50
T2 = 30
T1 = 10
Master (100% more difficult than Normal)
Hard (50% more difficult than Normal)
Normal (0% difficult)
0-120 seems more plausible/viable to me. If you want to GR 121-150, then you actually GR 121-150.
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