Permanent Seasonal Paragon Caps

Sure a paragon cap creates a more level playing field, but not all people play this game for leaderboards, leaderboards are only one facet of this game.
Whatever blizz will decide after s29 will be permanent, they will see if there are more players, and maybe they will chose the most cost efficient choice for them. Maybe with a cap they dont care about botting anymore and hacks team wont ever focus on d3 anymore.

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Because there’s no reason to keep playing after reaching it.

I noticed, and if you really think running fissures or speed 90:s for months on end for the off chance you get an upgrade as the sole mode of char progress is fun, be my guest, I certainly don’t.

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P800 as cap? Might as well just give your seasonal character P800 the moment you created it. :laughing:

That’s just the D3 forums.

Why can’t you go 1 thread without some kind of troll commment, lie, or instigation?

Not everyone gets that paragon that fast. Yes, some people will get there quickly. Why not just give everyone their stash tab since they eventually will complete the season? Don’t suck the marrow out of how these seasons work.

Hmmm, lets see…

The issue raised was this:

And your “rebuttal” is this:

You talk about power level at the end, which I clearly stated I don’t care about!

And I clearly stated that for longer and longer periods of time I will get squat from those. So this is again a moo point on your part.

Again you are talking about a thing I clearly stated that I don’t care about!

And casual players don’t come near that paragon level! So this is dishonest!

What for? I will never get that high paragon, since I don’t play nearly enough to get there! Again you are making a moo point!

If you want to argue in honest way (which I doubt now) compare it to actual paragon level we casuals do get in a season… Which is less than 3k. And then look at it all from perspective I offered.

Because I am not talking about power that is offered to me.

Answer me this, if they would update game and add a new class. Class that would be just one giant pixel but it would be significantly stronger than others. Would you play it? Because I wouldn’t since that wouldn’t be fun to play as.

No it is not.

:rof:

Yes we do!

No it is not, as I stated earlier… But go ahead and ignore what I said harder I guess :woman_shrugging:

Again making a straw man!

And again… I don’t want “extra”. Actually you are the one that says “this is extra power for you”. So you are the one that wants me to have extra power. Extra power that I couldn’t care less for!

Two things!

  1. I clearly stated that I don’t care about theories about power levels of builds! And you fixated yourself on it like a broken record!
  2. I ask for such dishonesty to cease, and yet you are keeping it.

Thanks for proving in such obvious way that you are here just to troll. Bye and cya never. Feel free to have last word, and consider yourself honored since you are the first person on that ignored list reserved for trolls.

Thank you… I was starting to doubt my ability to communicate my thoughts for a moment there.

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While I don’t agree with naksiloth much, how do you figure this? It just seems like you have different opinions. Differing opinions is not trolling. That frame of mind was something out of 2005.

ok, here is the list (from the top of my head):

  • Refusal to address actual point that was raised, and when pointed out on that ignoring that also!
  • Ad hominems, and when pointed out not acknowledging it, but rather asking me to “do the math” which is irrelevant to things I say.
  • Constant straw man of my point, even tho I pointed out that they are doing it. Zero effort to correct that!
  • Quoting out of context, and no owning up to the mistake.
  • Telling others (me) what feels rewarding to them. Which is dishonest tactic used by trolls. They can’t possibly know what I like or don’t.
  • Poisoning the well

I never claimed that… What I am saying is that they are trolling by ignoring netiquette and rules of reasonable discourse.

I do enjoy good conversation because it is a learning opportunity for me. But interlocutor has to be honest and stick to certain rules. Otherwise it is not productive.

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NO paragon caps is only for losers and haters

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I’ve moderated forums for 30 years. I’ve seen what real trolls are. What he did, I wouldn’t call it trolling at all. Sometimes, when a conversation gets a bit “heated” or people strongly disagree, it’s easy to want to believe the other is trolling. One thing that some moderators tend to disagree on is snide comments. I’ve talked to 2 moderators here and one said snide comments are trolling while another said they are not.

There are real trolls here and I have them blocked. There are a few things that people can do to really troll such as arguing for the sake of arguing, sock puppetry, flat-out lying, personal insults, sealioning, and piggy-backing. For me personally, you’d have to be 100% guilty of 4/6 to hit the block list.

Think of it this way. Let’s say you and I had a heated disagreement and I was a little snarky. Maybe I had a bad day. I wouldn’t hold that against somebody right away. It’s the habitual people who are the ones to avoid.

That’s because words don’t have intrinsic meanings, they have usages. And I listed things that they did, that in my usage of a word troll would qualify them as one. Bottom line is I don’t have time for people that are so dishonest. And I don’t care if you call such behavior on their part “trolling” or “wasting time” or whatever else. The thing is, I don’t have time for dishonest people.

I don’t have “a list and a number” for that. But I agree… If it is so obvious, they will be blocked. I just use netiquette and rules of reasonable discourse. If they break them consistently even after I ask them not to then for me it is obvious that they don’t care about honest discussion. And that falls under my definition of trolling.

OK, I would ask you to stop. What then?

And I don’t also… I pointed those things few times before I blocked them… I ask them to address actual point like what? 5 times? I pointed out same straw man what? 3 times?

I mean how many freebies I should give them on each and every point before it would be OK in your opinion to call them for what they are doing (which is arguing in dishonest way, and I call that trolling)

I mean, do you really think he was being dishonest in the literal sense?

There are people here who have their days or some subjects are a little more sensitive to them. I understand your perspective on it. I was only sharing my experience. When you’ve done it for so long, you tend to develop boundaries.

Looking at it realistically, when two people are clashing and one says “stop”, that’s the last thing the other will do because it’s not uncommon for the “you’re not my boss” attitude, especially when they’re already “upset” and not in the mindset to be civil. I just shrug it off, but that’s me.

There are some people who I’ve asked questions to and they don’t answer. They’re not obligated to really answer anything. That doesn’t make them a troll. Kind of like if a cop asks you where you’re going. If you don’t answer, that’s not a crime.

You are welcome to think that if you want, I’m not here to tell you how to be. I was only sharing an experienced viewpoint on the matter. I see the term “troll” misused a lot on here. There is even a guy (he knows who he is) that grossly misuses the term then tries to reinforce it with his sock accounts.

Sometimes, when we’re not in a truly calm state of mind, it’s a simple fallback term to use.

So you think game is not about cognitive skills and you can not learn anything more from its mechanics. You will ignore fishing endgame, not gonna grind for augments and you are not interested any of this as well. And that is okay, you can leave after a while, as everyone play intensely at first few weeks then drop this game. That is what repeated at any Season before S29 and even at vanilla D3 times.

Because I don’t see the problem, when game already keeps track of paragon levels beyond level 800. Just that it won’t grant you any power if he doesn’t care about power as he claimed it to be. As long as you keep playing, you can lessen the impact of the randomization and get rewarded for playing Fissures and Echoing Nightmares.
It is no harm if you can not play this for long, and drop it in 3 weeks into the Season. That always happen, and you don’t need an excuse to play this game for long at all. No one have the excuse to play this game for long.

Incremental progression is an excuse to play for long it but it’s usually best taken advantage of by dedicated players, not casuals. Casuals don’t play for long hours every day, dedicated players do and that is an advantage for them, an edge to say.

To say the least, people didn’t play S28 for long because it has incremental progression, it had baseline of great power that is passively granted amplifying your gains. I think passive multipliers are great for casual players as again, they do not play for long for small guaranteed reward to matter to them. There’s a thing called diminishing returns, you can have tripple someone’s paragon level but your damage won’t budge too much due to main stat at the first place. That’s my point, I haven’t evaded anything.

Do you honestly tell me that you are obsessed with seeing numbers grow up and desperate for it? There are more than one way to grow in power such as augments and finding better loot. If you can not get higher augments, more you play, you’ll get more materials and items as a reward.

Game gives you equal power to high Paragon level from the start and you are complaining about being too powerful to the point of getting small upgrades way less; which is expected outcome in all this. How is this hurting you? It’s a reward. It doesn’t matter if you don’t care about it. Other people gonna love this because they reach the peak faster.

How you fail to get guaranteed rewards when you keep playing? How you managed to get augments this season?

It’s still a reward no matter how much you complain about it. Season will give you a taste of being at the top and you are complaining about having to learn the game.

You’ll get a taste of being at the top power level, why do you think it is bad? Because you don’t see numbers growing up? There are more than one way to get rewarded as I have explained. To me, you are either trolling or there’s something wrong with your dopamine receptors. You don’t need an excuse to play this game for long.

You keep complaining about “ad hominems” yet you make weird typos like this. It’s called “moot” point.

What does character looks have to do with this? You are telling me, you’re not trolling at this point? It could be a block of ice, I don’t care as long as I have a cosmetic shop and make them “cooler”.

How? There’s always a tradeoff in this game, and not getting guaranteed progress is called because they wanted to gauge power before S30 returning with Altar.

A casual player can feel rewarded by many different ways and they still can. Sense of progression won’t do you any good for you to notice it at the first place because you do not play enough for it to be a difference.
Now with the capped system top players will have to grind slightly abit more than a casual player instead of letting groups carry them.

How a Whispers of Atonement is not a reward and where have you stated it? The only difference is that you can not use WoA right away and it’d be a waste if you do so. You have to upgrade it further or have higher gem ranks toward 140 for you to have an edge.

How is it a straw man when I’m speaking about offered power in Seasonal making a change?

You still have the option of skipping the season after a few weeks or not play at all. I just told you that there are more than one way to get rewarded and now the tasks are at everyone’s reach. Back then, a casual player wouldn’t be strong enough to upgrade WoA stones or average gem rank would linger about 120+ at most; now Seasonal theme giving you a power surge that would reward you to make the task even easier. Why is it a bad thing? Because you don’t see Paragon levels number stack up?

How mathcraft is dishonesty?
Game is deeper than what you see on the screen; it has cognitive skills(mostly reflexes and commit), a learning curve of trial and error (equipment optimization and adapting positioning). All in all, I have said you do NOT need numbers to feel rewarded as power has been given to you and game want you to seek control.

Your Paragon level still count beyond 800 in Seasonal, just you won’t get any power for it. Was that the problem? Really? Do you think game wouldn’t keep track of experience for it to be passed on non-Seasonal? Was that the issue from the start?

I didn’t make any strawman arguments. People have been playing this game for years and first few weeks are always intense then they go at their real life shenanigans and that’s fine.

You don’t need an excuse to play this game longer than a month because it’s a video game at the end of the day. If you are not interested in cognitive skills, then why are you even playing video games? For the sake of seeing numbers stack up? Because that is all you have been saying, if you excuse me.
Coordination of eye and hands are a skill that you can learn while you are at this Season to have an advantage, or learn how to position better or adapt against problematic encounters. You wouldn’t call this progress?

And by telling me that you need your daily progress fix, you don’t fit in any player profile that play video games in my mind, but seem obsessed with numbers to me.

Because you like numbers but don’t like the process of calculation, how does that work out for you in general?

You can block and mute anyone from your own profile settings.

Yes!

When I point something to some one 5 times and they still don’t acknowledge it, that is obvious that they are dishonest.

What?

When I point out that what you are doing do not belong in a mature and honest discussion so please stop and you keep doing it then you just proved that you don’t care about having honest discussion. Come on!

They are if they care about having honest discussion. Of course, they are free to not care about having honest discussion, but I call those people trolls. And I don’t have time for them.

That’s a bad analogy…

More accurate analogy would be cop found a murder weapon in your backpack and you refuse to tell him where you left your backpack or if some one could plant it there. But there are still holes in this analogy (like with any analogy really)

Again:

I can say the same about any word… That it gets “misused”. bottom line is that words do not have meanings themselves. They are only to communicate ideas behind them. And someones usage of a word can differ from yours… For example, there are parts of the world that where you say “meta” you mean a place to hide from the world… Or type of sausage… The thing is that you can’t just look at one word and say “this word means this” because language do not work this way. There is context. And not only context from the actual statement that was made, but cultural context also.

People I spend most time with tend to agree with me that wasting someones time deliberately and not caring about honest discussion is trolling. Hence this is how I use the word, and what I meant in that context.

Well, not for me.

Its more of an end game balance that also happens to promote fair play.
The big issue has been on going since launch and Blizz never got a handle over.
The old thread had many people requesting a lower paragon cap because it was set at 20,000.

I have hit 5k+ a few times in a season, and it is a LOT of work grinding xp speedruns 10 hours a day! Anyone requesting a cap that high is not being realistic.

I still like a sub 1k cap since you can allocate your paragon points where they need to go for your build/class, and this can be achieved by casual players.
A para cap also makes our gear more important, which was how Diablo games should be.

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This back and forth discussion actually saved me a lot of time. I don’t see any other heated discussion at least, or complains about it. People have been stuck on numbers, and forget that a video game is deeper than numbers on the surface.

How am I dishonest when all you have talked about was numbers and I gave you the mathcraft of things for you to compare. You ignored everything. You can like incremental progression, that doesn’t change the fact that Season theme is a reward for casual players as they don’t usually go beyond 2k, and you can still get rewarded by other means, if you keep playing.
Season theme will give you a taste of how would it feel when you are around 7k paragon level, if that is not interesting to you, then it’s not interesting to you. You don’t need to find lame excuses to complain about it; game always have many ways to reward casual players and you can always learn the combat mechanics to take it as a progression.

It’s not a loss if you played this Season for a week then drop it or skip it entirely, because people have been doing this for along a decade already.

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Ok, I’ll respect your position. I look at things more objectively than most. Some people, you can point things out to them multiple times, it might just be that they do not agree. I’ve seen people who repeat the same incorrect things over and over believing they’re right when really, they’re not. At some point, you just stop responding to that one thing because you feel like a broken record.

That’s not necessarily true. If someone is worked up, they can still want to have a discussion. It may not always be civil, but they also may not necessarily be dishonest.

Nobody is every obligated to answer any questions. You’re not, but let’s hypothetically say you were asking me 4 things and one of them, I thought :roll_eyes:… I would just skim past it and ignore that part. That’s not uncommon. If you honestly feel someone is not fulfilling your discussion needs, just end the discussion. Stop replying to them altogether.

Why is that a bad analogy? It’s accurate. The point was that you’re not obligated to answer.

Webster might disagree, and that’s ok. The term “troll” is pretty cut/dry. Back in 2005, it was very loose. Even the mods here banned people for trolling when they were simply disagreeing. Trolling = disagreeing was actually “common sense”.

Wasting someone’s time can be relevant too. That’s why I don’t like ambiguous terms.

That’s fine for you to say. Again, I’m not here to try and tell you how to think. I just believe, from my extensive experience that the term “troll” was not used correctly in this situation.

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Yeah. But issue here was I said “Lack of progression after each GR is discouraging” to what their constant answer was “BuT yOu WiLl Be StRoNgEr OvErAlL”… That was plain refusal to address actual point. So they actually did what you said here. They kept repeating the same thing that (that was not necessarily wrong - but failed to address actual issue). So I stopped responding. Permanently!

Notice that I didn’t say “discussion” but “honest discussion”. There is a difference!

Depends on the question…

And also this is a bit more complicated than “you are not oblige to answer”. I mean technically yeah, you are not but that just shows you do not care about honest discussion. Notice I didn’t say “you are obliged to answer no matter what your motivations are”. I said " if you care about honest discussion then you are obliged to answer".

And I did that? o.0

Because it does not include a motive to answer. Because I am not saying “you always have to answer”. I am saying “you gave to answer if you care about having honest discussion”. That is a different thing.

What mods do is different thing. And it actually shows my point. That how someone understands a term might vary from what someone else understands it.

Most terms are ambiguous. Because again words do not have intrinsic meanings, but rather they have usages. That is why language is always evolving and why words that conveyed some idea 60 years ago can convey something completely different today. That is why almost no one speaks Latin today and we have Spanish, French, Italian and so on instead. If words would have intrinsic meanings that process (language evolution) would be impossible.

Huh? Are you suggesting that term “troll” have some kind of intrinsic meaning?

It seems that maybe it wasn’t mutual understanding. Trolls sit back, rub their hands together and deliberately try to cause a problem.

A discussion is plainly given. If we’re talking, we’re having a discussion. An honest one… that’s relevant. He very well may be honest, in his head. There was one clown on here who tried saying I was lying… but only because I said something he didn’t agree with. I was having an honest conversation with him but he’ll say the opposite.

Under no circumstances does anyone on a forum have any obligation to answer any questions given to them. That does not make that person dishonest. I’ve ignored a lot of questions. Some, I honestly believe were asked in bad faith, some because the person was clearly hoping for a “gotcha!” moment, and some where the person was so worked up, that any answer I gave would do nothing more than fan the flames.

You did, but with the added “feel free to get the last word”. That’s generally a spiteful way to walk away. But that’s your choice.

I believe many words do have intrinsic meanings. We go by how they’re defined at the moment. Words may evolve but I can’t “Well, I didn’t actually break the law because in 100 years, the law won’t apply to me”. I point things like this out when I do audits. If you get pulled over for going 70 in a 55 and tell the judge “Well, one day the speed limit is going to be 70 there”, he’ll say “at the time of your ticket, it was 55”.

Absolutely, it does. A troll is someone who is/has intent of causing a problem on purpose. If I’m being normal and someone takes something I say out of context and gets angry, that doesn’t make me a troll.

A good example is sealioning. There was a person recently who was being repeatedly asked for “proof”. Asking for proof in itself is not trolling but when you’re doing it and really do not give a crap about the proof, you’re just trying to badger the person, that’s trolling.

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You already get stronger than what you can achieve as a casual player in Seasonal, and you don’t need to play GRs for long since you got a cap already. You can enter the GRs for the sake of being part of leaderboards now as it is its own reward.

You are not honest yourself as you haven’t answered anything.
Game design has a consistency on its own if you look for that, certain elements compliment one another. There are more than one way a game rewards you usually by offering you different tasks to complete, as well as its learning curve for cognitive skills. By claiming Greater Rifts are not rewarding in this Season, you ignore cognitive skills that player can learn, augment/gem upgrades and leaderboard placements all of a sudden. This is dishonesty.

All I did was showing you mathcraft of this Season for power growth, which you claim to only care about incremental progression then don’t care about extra power. This is a non-coherent argument; how come you like incremental progression but not like a free power surge?
Greater Rifts are still rewarding and now there for Leaderboards, yet game still keep track of your experience points beyond 800. You already at a place where you wouldn’t reach by yourself if that was not for the S29 theme, so any casual player would still prefer this over old uncapped system.

Why do you like doing chores for progression in a video game? Ain’t your daily job or school just enough and you want more? Why do you think game does not provide any depth and unrewarding at other aspects? If so why do you keep playing this? You could have dropped the game ages ago and play another. You honestly don’t need an excuse to keep playing and “be casual”. This is dishonesty, again.