Permanent Seasonal Paragon Caps

Most players group for the advantage in paragon levels, not leaderboards so you take that advantage away and the only motivation left is gem leveling.

Back to the OP is mainly looking for permanent solutions, which leaderboards aren’t a permanent thing.

To clarify, I’m not talking about solo leaderboards for those that can group up to farm.
I’m talking about the actual 2-man, 3-man and 4-man leaderboards.

I don’t understand why those should be excluded from a fairer environment

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No thanks. Paragon cap is cap.

I do not get past paragon level 1400 usually; however I would prefer to see NO CAP on the paragon level.
[There must be a better way to catch botters and have them permanently banned from all blizzard games.]
The way paragon points can get added is great the way it is with no cap.

If they want to try and have a ‘solo’ season, then there should be absolutely no way to be able to have groups.
I find it difficult to beleive that there is a player that can do the entire season withing two days. If they are having that easy a time; then have the difficulty level higher than the current T16 actually have the NPC’s become stronger by a factor of 10 (with bounty/booty/rewards being adjusted upwards.) Items acquired in the higher than T16 level would also need to be restricted from use in any season/non-season interaction with other players.

…oh well; just my take on the subject.


Depends on what you mean with “season”. The journey/getting to 800 is quite doable in two days solo.


I much rather have it at a level I won’t reach than at a level I reach in a couple of days.


There’s no discussion or a hint towards making the ceiling cap repeat at each Season, regularly or at SSF only. I for one, I prefer it to stay at SSF as S29 supposed to be a Seasonal theme and not a permanent feature. As SSF is a pretty slow to farm and accumulate power, I guess it can handle limited Paragon pretty well in that mode.

With ceiling cap, you’ll stack more toughness so you can afford more damage. I wouldn’t call this entirely more meaningful choices. Just that lower grade builds will be forced to play more skillfully, as the moment they choke on cooldowns, array of casts or slip positioning, they will fall in a blink.

Can you elaborate this? Capped 800 Paragon offer 200 for each tab, quadruples attribute limit, that grant faster power than 50 limit uncapped system ever could offer for a casual who play a few hours here and there. How you came to that conclusion? Why do you think it hurts casuals? Rest of your paragraph doesn’t give any hint or idea toward your opinions.

Where are you pulling those numbers from? Paragon has a cap but quadrupled limit on attributes, so you would get the idea of trade offs and backdraws of choices. They did introduce that because they wanted to give tweaks and control to the player and gauge their power for S30; believe it or not.
That means, they want you to be able to decide and adapt without replacing one item costing you 50% damage mitigation, thus half of your toughness, but increases your damage by 200% for a few seconds just because your life sustain is fine but cooldown management is horrible.

And that’s… “bad”, because?
If you gonna complain about loot factor, Fissures exist to give you better loot the deeper you delve; you might have not noticed that since PTR had Djank Miem in it.


I am casual player. I couldn’t care less about leader boards. I will reach lvl 800 in about 2 days like always. And after that I will spend large amounts of time without having any rewards for the time I invest. It is discouraging.

For example. Right now I clear GR and I get crappy loot, some upgrades for whispers and some paragon levels. I allocate points in to mainstat and I get the feeling “yeah, I just got a tiny bit stronger”. After change I will feel like “oh, nothing changed in my character…”. And that feeling will stay for longer and longer periods of time since it will take longer and longer to find upgrades for gear and farm better and better augments.


You have fissures to take care of loot quality, farther you go.
PTR had Djank Miem to fill the entire town with loot pinãtas and everyone thought Fissures are not even a real feature. Because when players arrived at the Fissures in full Ancient and full Primals maybe, what could have been an upgrade from Fissures already lost its meaning.

Great. So you wanna repeat that instead?

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Great… Want to stop quoting out of context?

here, I’ll help ya:

So, each fissure will guarantee me an upgrade to my gear by better ancient that I have, or leveled gem for augment? No? So my point stands!

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Absurd claim. It doesn’t stand, but Fissures won’t guarantee you any kind of upgrade just because you visited them once. You have to hit them up over and over again like you were doing with Greater Rifts or Echoing Nightmares, but deeper you go, loot quality will improve. Eventually randomization will reward you, the longer you play and you will feel stronger.

When you found any upgrade it doesn’t arrive with full augments or in Primal quality even; you have to grind for it in GRs or ENs. Diablo is a loot simulator with action, and to get better loot you have to get into action or take risks. Game will not remove or flatten that player experience. So, your point doesn’t stand.

You will get stronger in time, if you had the patience to grind abit more, you’ll catch up top players abit late but there won’t be a terrible power gap between you and them considering you know what you are doing. As a casual player, that actually is a reward for you; your power will peak higher in shorter time span and Season theme guarantees higher quality loot. If you deny this, I have nothing to add. What do you wish? Items to drop with Rank 150 augments tailored for your class? No, that won’t happen.

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So point stands… Long periods of time without any sense of progression… Paragon levels gave that. It was sort of consolation prize.

Yes it does… It just flew over your head.

I know… But journey is discouraging without gaining paragons in the meantime. That is the point!

And I don’t care about “catching up” to anybody… So this is just a moo point!


And? After reaching 800 and few GRs/fissures that won’t upgrade my character there is no sense to play. This is just discouraging!


You’ll be powerful enough to sweep higher than any other Season with quadrupled attribute bonus. High tier builds seem to only budge for 0.2 GR tiers, such as Tal Rasha and low tier builds rumbled down about 3 GR tiers. How much powerful you want to be? You’ll be clearing GR130s in a matter of a month or so.

Your consolation prize is around handful of damage and protection at every level in uncapped paragon system. With capped Paragon, all you had to do is rearrange and optimize the Paragon level as your equipment gets upgraded and shake down a few flaws.
All you need to do is doing some thinking and that shouldn’t scare anyone off. Including casuals.

Again. You’re wrong. I see your profile, hitting 2k at non-Season and Seasonal. Capped Paragon offer quadruppled attributes and doubles your area damage with around 15-25% more damage and around 40% more toughness potential compared to the old.

This is just by reaching Plvl 800 at S29; if you don’t trust me at least do the math. If you have full augments from equipment you’ll at the range of 15k main stat or so, when you add around 15% bonus to that, the minimal bonus, you will feel as if you are at 17k which averages at around 1.8k plvl at the uncapped system WITHOUT considering doubled Area Damage%. With AD% bonus, capped plvl it can carry you well around 36k main stat in terms of damage output which equals around 5k plvl at uncapped system.

Yes, that’s a reward, and you are turning a blind eye to mathcraft. Either you have no idea how to play the game and clueless on its bonuses, or you are trolling here. S29 is a big boon for casual players, and you can deny that as much as you want; it won’t change numbers or estimated clears by people who played this for a decade.

Greater Rifts at the current system won’t guarantee you any upgrades either. You must be kiddin’ if you think comparing the old system with the upcoming would give you any ground in the argument.

And this is relevant to what I said how exactly?

What is all of this gibberish? This do not address what I said at all…

Nope, I am not wrong… Again I don’t care about actual power level and fairness to top blasters… Try again and address what I actually said!

Again this is not relevant… You are talking about actual power level while I am talking about progression… Because with this system that is proposed now I will hit 800 and then be done in 2-3 days since there won’t be any progression in the meantime!

I am not. You are turning a blind eye to the point raised tho!

I ask for ad hominem to cease!

It’s not!

Casuals do not care about those… Why you are trying to force competing on the ladder down my throat?


Here’s your point; you can grind Greater Rifts to stack Petrified Screams for augments, since Paragon level is capped the biggest main stat boost become the augments obviously. That is your guaranteed reward, alongside with grinding Fissures for finding higher quality gear.

How is it not? Please elaborate the difference between fast and slow progress when the finish line doesn’t change. What does it feel to reach the double power of what you achieved this Season in a shorter time span?

If you have a plan to grind you will have progression. You can play more Greater Rifts to gather Petrified Screams then grind to upgrade them further. That’s progress and reward for you, because everyone will be doing this after a month instead of worrying about paragon level being capped at 800.

How is it not when it offers double damage without grinding for months?
All developers wanted to is gauging power for S30 Altar to be in the game with the right amount of power. If you are not up to challenge, no one gonna blame you, but you have to see that this Season is not something you go all in without a plan.

So you think casuals only care about seeing numbers stack up and don’t care about a big power surge? Well, your level go up after level 800 if that’s a consolation prize for you but you won’t get any points because you won’t be needing it. Game balanced for top clears where its at the reach of casual players if they strive for it.

Instead of taking offense at my doubts, do the mathcraft then? I’m giving you facts and nothing else. Your personal opinion will get you out of this worrisome loop, not me.

And this is relevant to what I said, which was just to remind you:

How exactly?

Fast progress - I do it in 2 days and I am done
Slow progress - It takes me few weeks to achieve same thing. But since it is in small increments I get the feeling I am getting a tad bit stronger each hour I play.

Again you are ignoring the main point I made:

You can’t just ignore that and move on!

Because it is discouraging to get there. Or are you saying that by paragon 800 I should have full build ready and augmented?

Ones I know? Yes. Do you know any other?

And you ignoring what I said yet again:

Can you stop?

first of all, instead of asking me to do the math apologize for using such digustingly dishonest tactic!

Second of all, why I would do any math here? I never claimed that power level will be lower for my builds. This is completely irrelevant to the point!


According to mathcraft you already reached and surpass the power of previous Season or become really close to it. How much stronger you want to get? Do you like being dripfed power? That’s the issue? Really? Do you like getting dripfed? Well, when you hit 6k+ plvl in the uncapped system, you won’t get level ups every day if you don’t increase the time spent each day. Telling you, capped system exactly giving you the feel of what it’d be like 5-7k+ plvl, and that is just enough.

As I have said, you can grab Petrified Screams and hit up Fissures for loot to get your upgrade fix. Don’t expect to be rewarded everyday if you were to hit 6-8k plvl with the play schedule you hit 2k plvl in a matter of 6 months though. You don’t even need to do any comparison, they’re almost identical yet you complain about reaching high power too early; this is what it is like to reach high power. Game is giving you taste, and if you refuse to sit down, as a casual player, you won’t get rewarded; be it in the case of materials or learning the ropes.

They will get you perhaps more than +5 stats because after you hit 5-6k paragon level, you would encounter this “reward” way rare if you are truly a casual player.
All the while you can “try” and get better at the game, such as hitting array of spell casts, positioning, aiming projectiles, stutter steps and whatnot. You don’t need numbers and extra grinding or watching numbers stack up to get better, you can get better now because you have been granted power. Game want you to have control over it and that’s fair.

Guess what? You’re not. Guaranteed rewards, doesn’t reduce the value of gameplay, neither they increase it. Capped Paragon still give you guaranteed rewards but ask you to grind more further to be rewarded.
You can be 5-7k+ plvl at non-seasonal and might not have feel rewarded at all, because you won’t level up every day if you only sit for an hour infront of the game to play solo. You need friends, organization and what not to be rewarded and this takes time and planning, just like S29 ask you to plan something to be rewarded.

I don’t. You don’t take what I am saying serious or at least think for yourself even once. Compare how much experience needed to get through a level up after 6k paragon level, then compare it to your accumulated total experience at 2k paragon level. The gap can surprise you.

It won’t be any different than reaching high paragon levels as I have repeated it in this post over and over again. Yet I know you won’t make a comparison and keep ignoring this point then blame me about ignoring your points. So whatever.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how important they are? :popcorn:

You complain about reaching high paragon level early. How can I take you serious? All you had to do is having a plan instead of getting obsessed with paragon level. When capped system give you power beyond what you have tasted so far, you will get rewarded if you can optimize for the right attributes.

Mathcraft is not a dishonest tactic. Season theme gives you a taste of having high power in a matter of a month, you’re hesitant because you have no idea what to do about it. All you need is a plan to get rewarded, that is part of theme and intended gameplay experience.


Can you address the actual point I raised?

As you can see, there is nothing there about “being stronger”… It is about “getting stronger with each GR”. It is progression versus power level. It is better to have lower power level with longer but steady progression towards it, rather than higher power level quickly that does not give steady sense of progression!

I won’t… It is waay to high to what I can achieve with time I dedicate to this game!

OK, and that feeling sucks… What is your point exactly here? Because I won’t reach 5k paragon ever with time I dedicate to D3 so this is yet again a moo point!


I don’t care how long it would take… this is not my goal. Again you are making a moo point!

Or I could play the game the way I enjoy without tryharding for LB…

Stronger =/= better.

Now quote me where I actually said “better”. Because you again not addressing what I said just to say “paragon cap good and you should like it”… This is not how honest discussion works!

Guess what? I am!

And this is bad. Because it takes away a sense of progression that is needed for casual players!

And that is why I do not play non-season… So?

Or I can play the game at my own pace during season and have fun and feel rewarded for each minute I did put in to the game like several past seasons…

Not everyone aims at 10k paragon like you are suggesting here. I am content with not hitting 2k in a season. Because game was fun for every single minute and I never got a feeling like I am wasting my time because I do not gain anything!

You do… You are dancing around the issue without addressing actual point. That it takes away incremental sense of progression (however small it is) after each GR cleared.

So? Casuals do not hit high paragon levels… And, just to rimnd you and every one that would stumble upon this, that little discussions tarted with this post:

So we are talking about casual players. You bringing up paragon 6k is dishonest!

Thats a nice straw man of what I am saying… Can you get any more dishonest?

Again, you are missing elephant in the room… It’s not about “paragon levels”, its about “incremental progression”. There are many ways to actually keep both (paragon cap and give people incremental progression). But you are fixated yourself on this straw man of what I am saying and refuse to address what I am actually saying.

And again. I don’t care about that power. I don’t want it if it means I have to force myself to grind where I do not get small incremental rewards for the time I put in!

Never claimed that!

Tell me are you just trolling or is it really strong case of Dunning-Kruger effect on your part?


I don’t dance around the subject, I thought you know how to use mathcraft or have common sense. Let’s take an account with 2k paragon level for example; having 3k additional main stat from paragon, this “incremental progression” only made around 1 GR tier difference for a fully rank 125 Whisper augmented build.

As I have said when paragon level is capped, as in S29, you can still hit Greater Rifts and grab Petrified Screams and grind for loot. Not every time you will get a gem upgrade from Greater Rifts either. If you really like your +5 main stat boost, then the only way to ensure them are getting extra ranks at augment gems.

Good news, now you can be 6k plvl in a matter of a month. S28 ramped it up like +7-8 GR tiers which is around +2x more damage output at average. Now S29, comes up with around +1.5x more damage multiplier which averages at 6 Greater Rift tier boost.

You won’t get stronger with each GR solo once you acquired really high paragon level. Compare the amount of experience you accumulated at 2k paragon level this Season with a single level up requirement after 6-7k paragon level. To compare, a total experience requirement to hit 2k paragon level weights about 119T, and each level up after 6k takes around 1T experience points.

Are you for real? :popcorn: I’m talking about the power offered to you, yet you manage to complain which is hilarious to a point but gets stale quickly.
S29 brings you up to that power without even trying; this is a reward to casual players and that’s a fact. Not having incremental progression for long is just a side effect, but that’s only worrying if you have no plans or rhyme on what is arriving.

Considering you accumulated very low amount of experience compared to, say, 6-10k like top players; do you honestly think you would have guaranteed rewards everyday if you were to hit that level? For the hours you spared to play D3 this Season with almost constant 41% experience boost, I’d say you wouldn’t even get near such power at the first place. Thus, it’s exactly a reward for casuals. I don’t get why are you complaining about it.

Yet if you have a plan to go with, you can pretty much zip between endgame dungeons; Echoing, Greater Rifts and Fissures, you could have an edge over the rest of the playerbase.

That’s still a reward. You are the one who complain about it. If you think it sucks, you are free to leave the Seasonal as no one will blame you for it, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a reward.

Casual players don’t need a sense of progression. For a casual player profile, there are more than one way to get rewarded in this game compared to the dedicated bunch.

To compensate loot quality, Season offer you Fissures to get you better loot in a shorter duration because obviously it won’t take you long to reach maximum. You still have Echoing Nightmares to min-max augments as well. How is it any worse or unrewarding?
A Petrified Scream looted from a Greater Rift Guardian with 5% chance, this is your incremental progression or reward to say the least. After acquiring a Whisper, you have to upgrade it further in a Greater Rift again; that’s the end game and your reward.

Incremental sesne of progression is not needed. As it stands game balanced around GR150 clears and sitting at a reliable state between builds for diversity. That power boost you don’t like, is the main course here.
They don’t need to you give you extra, because you have power in heaps already. S29 is a challenge if you would take it, so developers would reflect that in their statistics for S30 to arrive with minimal problems. All it ask you is, take the matter at your own hands and try to strive for control now that you have power.

You don’t need incremental progression at the first place, because you have power on a golden platter already. Casual profile players gather them from items because they don’t grind long for Paragon levels to matter that much and now you can reach the power without waiting. Why is it any “bad”?
At high paragon levels, only your augments gonna matter and you will grind for that. Just like you grinded for Greater Rifts at the previous Seasons, now you have to zipline between Echoing Nightmares and Visions of Enmity for loot and augments, respectively.

I can ask the same question to you. You clearly don’t have any idea about the theories revolving around for this upcoming season. GR clears hardly budged, and as a casual player you have similar power surge to this current season without getting dripfed power on a grindfest.
You sound like you love the process of grinding with 2k plvl, yet still clueless about mathcraft of the game. You should be able to not care about other players and not care about incremental progression; they’re not correlated traits lest they be antithesis of each other. Season rewards you, the casual player and there are guaranteed rewards if you show effort for them.

You don’t need incremental progression, or more paragon numbers to get stronger. What they decide as the ceiling is all you need, and probably all you gonna get. You could have focus on getting better on the game instead of worrying about numbers then pretend that you don’t care about other players. You can learn cognitive skills for example and still play this Season for a comparably long time.
You can grind for extra levels on Whispers like game expects you to do. If you drop it early, no one cares though. As you already climbed at the top, you supposed to get upgrades even more rare at that point. That doesn’t mean guaranteed rewards are not there.

If you have any idea I’d like to hear it. Paragon cap is there, because entire game is built and designed on trade offs and backdraws for your decisions. You might lose 50% damage mitigation, but gain 100% more damage and that’s good because you can have better sustain at the rest of the aspects. Or, you would afford to lose damage output but gain defense, because your sustain is bad but crowd control is over the board.

This ceiling cap emphasizes this, giving you more backdraws to think about and provide you a message to read between lines if you were to stop dabbling away from it.

It’s impressive how Naksiloth keeps failing to address tricksters raised point over and over.

Trickster is talking about guaranteed constant progression as consolation prize, for when you’re not lucky with the RNG based progression like itemization or petrified scream drops.

This has nothing to do with actual power levels, or choice of stat distribution or any mathcraft at all.

It’s only about the progression system to have both, guaranteed and luck based progression at the same time.

As soon as the player hits the cap, luck based progression is all that’s left, which is discouraging, especially for casuals.