Patch 2.7.3 - no DH changes

[anon30358639]

@TheRoninOne-1221

Not fun compared to the UE multishot that I’ve been playing since S8. I never actually played the pre-nerf GoD, but I heard that was fun too.

I still play UE MS, although only as a key farmer/gold farmer these days. It’s still a lot of fun to play, and I introduced a mate to it this season and he enjoyed it a lot.

@TheRoninOne-1221

BTW you need to get the idea out of your head that I only enjoy playing the most OP builds. I’ve played every DH build listed on Maxroll (except N6G4 which is basically GoD6) many of which are tragically underpowered for how fun they are.

I’ll agree with the underpowered comment. This is why I have been arguing for a very long time that the builds need to be balanced, to within 1 GR of each other. People keep telling me that that’s not possible and I keep calling BS. This game is based on maths. maths can most certainly be balanced. Blizzard just doesn’t want to do it because it doesn’t care about the game and is inept and lazy.

[TheRoninOne-1221]

@anon30358639

This is why I have been arguing for a very long time that the builds need to be balanced, to within 1 GR of each other. People keep telling me that that’s not possible and I keep calling BS. This game is based on maths. maths can most certainly be balanced. Blizzard just doesn’t want to do it because it doesn’t care about the game and is inept and lazy.

Ahaha agreed here. Lazy and mathematically incompetent (perhaps they hired too many business and CS majors?)

[anon30358639]

@TheRoninOne-1221

Ahaha agreed here. Lazy and mathematically incompetent (perhaps they hired too many business and CS majors?)

Quite possibly. I have always found marketing and lawyers to be Two careers that are well, not so nice people. I don’t trust either. Not by a long shot.

[Cavendar-1706]

@TheRoninOne-1221

I’ve played every DH build listed on Maxroll (except N6G4 which is basically GoD6) many of which are tragically underpowered for how fun they are.

I loved the season where UE Grenades was the top build.

@anon30358639

People keep telling me that that’s not possible and I keep calling BS.

There’s too many parameters. The whole point of theory crafting is to find the build which adds up the maths higher than the other builds. In order to achieve specific mathematical balance, there would need to be more stringent limits and that would ruin the fun of the game.

[Cascade-21735]

@Cavendar-1706

There’s too many parameters. The whole point of theory crafting is to find the build which adds up the maths higher than the other builds. In order to achieve specific mathematical balance, there would need to be more stringent limits and that would ruin the fun of the game.

Yeah just looking at the gear and skills and sitting down in D3planner isn’t enough to calculate the max GR it can clear. It’s still useful for a lot of things, great for comparing different flavours of the same build, and can help you with order-of-magnitude kind of calculations. But too many things depends on execution inside the rift. Like, how many mobs can you hit at the same time with a sentry? How much squirts uptime do you have? How much value can you get of a condi? Can you tank a group of 3 elites while still dps:ing? How much value from zeis? How much do you gain from the grotesques exploding into eels that give you area damage? How much will teleport cooldown cut down your travel time between mobs? How much time do you need to pull mobs together? To drag elites? Exactly how good rift can you expect to get? Just the fact that experienced players can clear much higher than someone that’s relatively new is an indication that max GR potential is very difficult to calculate from first principle.

A better way is probably more data driven, where they look at how high builds actually do clear, as they do here: All Class Sets Ranked by Real Clears

Even there, I think they have an uncertainty of at least 3 GRs. Probably more. Clearly builds can be balanced much better than what they are now, they are spread over more than 15GRs now, but getting all within 1 GR is not feasible. If we get most within 5GRs, that would be an incredible achievement already.

[anon30358639]

@Cavendar-1706

There’s too many parameters. The whole point of theory crafting is to find the build which adds up the maths higher than the other builds. In order to achieve specific mathematical balance, there would need to be more stringent limits and that would ruin the fun of the game.

Sorry, but I’m not buying that. DPS is what determines the builds in this game. All that needs to be done is to balance DPS. it’s that simple.

[Cascade-21735]

@anon30358639

DPS is what determines the builds in this game. All that needs to be done is to balance DPS. it’s that simple.

Honestly not sure if trolling. Either way, why don’t you walk us through how you’d handle the complications I listed above? After all, it’s that simple.

[anon30358639]

@Cascade-21735

Honestly not sure if trolling. Either way, why don’t you walk us through how you’d handle the complications I listed above? After all, it’s that simple.

X build does x amount of DPS. match the DPS by manipulating skills/passives as required to get the same DPS number. It ain’t rocket science.

[Cascade-21735]

You didn’t tell me how you were going to handle any of the complications.

[anon30358639]

DPS is what dictates clears. Sub options like speed/mobility and toughness are minimal to the equation. If builds are doing the same DPS, they’ll clear the same GR levels. Blizzard has all of the data available to them - so, unless I decrypt the game’s code and work my way through millions of lines of code, it’s a lot harder for me. When you know the behind the scenes math, you can manipulate that to ensure similarity to a high degree between builds.

However, Blizzard has no intent of doing so. It seems to push a single elite build per character class for a few seasons, then drop that, and push another One. I mean, GOD HA for 3 seasons, now M6 UE MS. Wizard? Fireball wizard…Monk? Inna mystic…Crusader? I think you should be starting to get the drift now. If they can tweak a single build, they can tweak all builds.

It’s much like group play - where Monks and Barbs have dominated for nearly every season, meanwhile, the DH class has had SFA involvement in group play by comparison. Same for Witch Doctor. They are the 2 lowest classes by play time in group play for all 25 seasons. By FAR.

[Cascade-21735]

We have all the equations. They are on d3planner. Honestly, with all the original programmers gone, right now the community probably understands the game better than anyone at blizzard. But how fast you can actually clear a rift depends on more complicated mechanics than just damage multipliers. So asking for third time now, how would you address the issues I posted above? Dodging that question is just admitting that you have no idea how to answer.

[anon30358639]

@Cascade-21735

But how fast you can actually clear a rift depends on more complicated mechanics than just damage multipliers.

And I maintain that it doesn’t. Kill monsters = timer progress. Killing monsters quicker requires more DPS. It’s that simple.

I haven’t dodged any question. You are simply making it more difficult for no reason at all.

[Cascade-21735]

@anon30358639

I haven’t dodged any question

Yeah you have, 3 times now. So I’ll stop asking, it’s clear that you can’t answer. Ignoring complications doesn’t make them go away.

[Cavendar-1706]

@anon30358639

And I maintain that it doesn’t. Kill monsters = timer progress. Killing monsters quicker requires more DPS. It’s that simple.

This would only be true if all you did was stand still and click your attack button. Oh, and if there were no choices between abilities and runes because they all did the exact same amount of damage with no other effects.

If you take into account how the game is actually played, the immense variety of options, and probably most important, game mechanics that are completely different for every build, then you see that it is not, in fact, simple at all.

The reality is the developers have no idea, and no way to have an idea except for one: to look at the data from the players. At that point, if they want to “balance” something, they can make a change to a build, either in mechanics or numbers, but almost inevitably, the players will do something unexpected: like use a different rune, or change which jewelry they use, or decide it’s worth theory crafting the best use of a totally different build, and viola, the data has changed. Time to rebalance.

You’re also ignoring an important facet of the game: if all builds were identical, then the game would be dull as mud. A large portion of the enthusiasm for playing the game, especially in seasons, is to try out the most exciting builds of the moment. Take that away, and the player base would quickly dissipate. Having better builds is better for the game.

Oh, and don’t forget about player skill. For example, Earthquake Barb isn’t considered a top build, but this Rage guy is apparently amazing with it. Or Frozen Orb DMO, a low power build, except in that one guy TinneMone (I’m sure that’s spelled wrong and I don’t know if it’s a guy) hands. Dieoxide makes Marauders look much better than it is on average. And so on. There’s no way to balance around this, other than to ignore them, which would defeat the whole purpose.

[anon30358639]

@Cavendar-1706

A large portion of the enthusiasm for playing the game, especially in seasons, is to try out the most exciting builds of the moment.

NO. Players gravitate to the builds with the highest DPS, cos that gives them the best opportunity of pushing higher. Just bumping DPS on all builds to match the most powerful builds will fix nearly all of the issues with this game and create far better diversity.

[KillerProc-1122]

Not true. Even glass canon builds need some sort of defense once you go high enough in Grifts.

Now it’s true needing more damage progresses more than defense the higher you go but defense never becomes irrelevant. S6 is only weak because of it’s damage (comparatively speaking) but also it’s piss poor defense on the 4 piece.

Conversely, defense is decent with GoD but the low pierce cap limits it’s damage to much. A well geared GoD build can survive pretty well in Grifts as high as 150 but the damage just won’t do unless you have paragons in the astronomical range.

Point is, defense matters in this game despite not needing as much defense as you do damage.

[anon30358639]

@KillerProc-1122

Now it’s true needing more damage progresses more than defense the higher you go but defense never becomes irrelevant. S6 is only weak because of it’s damage (comparatively speaking) but also it’s piss poor defense on the 4 piece.

OK, let’s try this - mega defence and bugger all DPS. See how high you rank…

Been saying that about s6 impale for a long time. To rub salt into the wound, s6 impale gear is FAR HARDER to get than any other DH gear. Night and day difference.

Chain of shadows vs zoeys secret or witching hour or hunters wrath - it’s easily 5x harder to drop. Not even close.

HPS quiver? Same deal, and getting a well rolled one is infinitely harder than any other DH quiver. Night and day.

Typically, s6 impale uses elusive ring, and that’s harder to get than focus/restraint, which most of the other DH builds tend to use (yes, I know a few have variants that use tp/cr, but that’s not the majority of players imho).

Aughilds plan? Pretty much the last plan to drop, even after the CCR plan.

@KillerProc-1122

Conversely, defense is decent with GoD but the low pierce cap limits it’s damage to much. A well geared GoD build can survive pretty well in Grifts as high as 150 but the damage just won’t do unless you have paragons in the astronomical range.

GOD HA is on par with s6 impale for damage…and that’s after the s25 patch which buffed s6 impale. Doesn’t say much for s6 impale.

DPS is the MAIN thing that drives GR clears. It is of much more importance than anything else. I’m not saying defence isn’t important, it is, but DPS is vastly more important when it ultimately comes to pushing. I know s6 impale is squishy above GR125 typically (at lower paragons) and ~GR130 @ higher paragons. I managed a GR137 (HC, PS4) with s6 impale last season, and that’s with the added advantage of extra toughness from the shards and much higher paragon than usual (~p2300) and it was squishy. But, my DPS was right on the edge too - adding more DPS to s6 impale would be semi pointless unless they buffed toughness as well. And, I have said that in the past in my s6 impale suggestion thread.

But anyway, I apparently know nothing about the game.

[Jazz-2357]

@anon30358639

Chain of shadows vs zoeys secret or witching hour or hunters wrath - it’s easily 5x harder to drop. Not even close.

This season I had four Chain of Shadows before getting a Zoey. This is from drops, gambles and upgrades… (Oh it’s because the game “knows” that I want a Zoey, so it gives me the opposite of what I want?).

[anon30358639]

@Jazz-2357

This season I had four Chain of Shadows before getting a Zoey. This is from drops, gambles and upgrades… (Oh it’s because the game “knows” that I want a Zoey, so it gives me the opposite of what I want?).

That is not my experience over many seasons. No confirmation bias here as you will no doubt try and imply. Every other belt, consistently, over every season since s12, has dropped far more often than chain of shadows. The odds of me consistently having such terrible RNG for 14 straight seasons are inconceivable.

[Meteorblade-2266]

@anon30358639

The odds of me consistently having such terrible RNG for 14 straight seasons are inconceivable.

Last season my Impale DH’s guaranteed primal for her first GR70 was a chain of shadows belt. However, one person’s individual results can’t be reliably interpolated to general results of the overall players population.