???
I don’t see how an unbalanced game can be in favor of fun.
A balanced game will ALWAYS favor fun.
I don’t know if I understand correctly what you mean, but it is much more fun to be able to join a group with DH / WD / Monk where EVERYONE is relevant, instead of just WW or just Chantodo’s or Saders … Besides, where is it SS / HoTA / Charge? Wouldn’t it be much better if instead of just 1 competitive build, we had all of these on the leaderboard? I don’t think I can say the opposite, the balance will always be more fun.
Like I said balance isn’t unimportant and there should not be huge discrepancies between classes. That’s really the issue at the core of things. How you get there is debatable.
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At the end of era 4, the top solo GR clears was GR 77 at under 3K paragon. Now the top GR clear is GR 150 @ ~10K paragon. This paragon difference account for a 4X increase in damage. To get to GR 150, one has to have additional powercreep of >20,000X.
Pretty simple. You play a game because it is fun. If you aren’t having fun and you keep playing…maybe you are a sadist 
Rignt now the core issue is power discrepancies between classes. You will get no argument from me that more balance is needed. The argument on how to get there is the issue I’m concerned with. I’ve said a couple times “no one should feel at a disadvantage when playing their favorite class”.
Some people want to balance around 10K paragon players. I’d prefer balancing around the average player and balance in everyday play (ie solo speeds and grouping [meta and speeds]). I could care less what 10k paragon players are doing.
Some feel there is a trickle down effect, must be firm believers in Reagan . In some cases this is true, but that is build dependent and some pushing builds are not great for solo speeds or grouping.
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OK? I fail to see any point. Would we be talking about this power creep if D3’s endgame was different? If there was actual content added to keep the end game fresh, there would be no need to boost the power levels as high as they did. The powercreep is a product of their own doing. My guess is they increased it that much cause people don’t like to feel like they aren’t going anywhere and increasing their power levels gives them a sense of accomplishment cause they can now beat a GR that they previously could not attain.
You’ll have to give me a better argument cause I really don’t see how your statement refutes anything I’ve said about D3’s endgame.
I have analyzed low paragon (2.5-3.5K and less than 2.3K) players among the top 1000 in the current non-season leaderboard. This analysis shows that crusaders and barbarians are overperforming.
I provided the link to that analysis also. Here it is again.
Do you think that average players can give us precise parameters about the potential of builds? If you want to be based on speeds, how can you know if the build in question is at its limit?
Ok fine. What’s your point? You say nerf them down. I’m fine with tuning the builds down some and bringing the other classes up to whatever the desired level is for Blizz. Nerfing in Blizzard terms = destroy builds into the ground. Tune away, let’s not destroy things.
Bringing one build from every class up to 141, or tuning down, does not ensure balance in solo speeds or grouping. We should be concerned with having every class on par with a solo speed build and every class having an opportunity for spots in meta speeds and grouping. That is the MOST important balance issue we face, not that 10k paragons need to be balanced.
We both want balance but your view of balance is narrow. I believe my view takes into account a wider view of balance that would ensure more players opportunities in groups and a more level playing field solo.
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For the fun promoters through better balance, none of us are advocating for an overnerf or overbuff. As Poconut noted, one can either fight to block nerfs or suggest an appropriate nerf that aligns with Blizzard game balance ideas.
I think that they are starting with solo balance first. In terms of group balance, I agree that there should be more options. Barbs should be able to do enough damage in comparison to other classes to DPS. Conversely, other classes besides monks and barbs should be able to have a zDPS that has been monopolized from season 5 and the corresponding eras.
Of course not. That’s not my point. Average players >>> 10k paragon players. Are you a 10k paragon player? If you are great and maybe the balance at the top means something to you. If you aren’t then wouldn’t you like to take, let’s say you play DH, wouldn’t you like to take your DH and be able to speed GR’s solo as fast as let’s say a barb? Wouldn’t you like to take that DH and play it in meta groups. Aren’t these things more meaningful than balance of 10K paragon players on the top end?
If you believe that balancing on the top end achieves balance in solo speeds and grouping then we will have to agree to disagree.
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But if DH and Barb had a similar solo limit, wouldn’t they be able to play speeds equally and with similar efficiency?
As we’ve discussed. It will likely take them a year to hammer out the balance of one build for each class at the top end since they will likely only be looking at 1-2 classes per patch. So players should happily sit around for another year hoping that they will eventually look into balance of the game where most everyone spends their time?? The most time spent in game is speeds and meta pushing should that not be the focus if we really want balance??
Ok. What if they choose the rapid fire build as the one they buff to 141. Is that build good for speeds, nope. Would that build have any place in meta speeds or push goups, nope (well maybe not completely nope, but in my opinion, likely not).
But this is not a power problem, it is characteristic of the build, even if you increase the power of rapidfire, it will still be inefficient for speeds, that is, something must be ugly at the level of build / item / strategy.
sry my english.
Ok dreaming now, but let’s picture this (assume we are talking about players at roughly the same paragon level):
Every class has a speed build for rifts and bounties that are on par
Every class has a build that speeds 105s (or whatever GR that is considered)
Every class can fit into a meta speed group and meta push group, or at the very least an off meta that doesn’t have too much of a disadvantage.
Don’t you think that is what the majority of players would like?
Or we could just balance one top build for each class and hope that all works out.
Your call.
Edit. In the above scenario would you really be concerned if the game was imbalanced on the top end with 10k paragon players?
That’s exactly my point. It very much depends on what builds they choose to buff to 141 for each class. If careful consideration is not taken then those buffed builds serve only the purpose of pushing and we are left with the same imbalances we currently face in solo play efficiency and group inclusiveness. Not only should they balance the top build they should also buff builds that will affect solo efficiency and allow different classes to be involved in the metas.
I think about this situation:
Monk: WoL
DH: Impale
Barb: WW
Sader: AoV HF
Necro: Corpse Lance
WD: Carnevil
If these builds are capable of doing 141 solo, how could they not be relevant for group and solo speeds?
When I speak in a group I mean average players because they would not be concerned with playing META, that is, the best possible setup in terms of efficiency.
In the scenario you described that very well could be correct. But since it will likely only be one build from each class that is buffed to 141, the build chosen will have consequences and if that build doesn’t provide speed for solo or utility for groups we will miss a crucial balance aspect.
Maybe I’m being too pessimistic about Blizzard, even though they have really given us little hope when it comes to balance, and they will get everything right by just balancing top end and we will get balance across the board. Still pessimistic…
Balancing strictly on the top end can be shortsighted and unless significant consideration is taken…we can still end up with imbalance in solo speeds and grouping. Balancing at the top will not solve all problems with balance. The problems I’m talking about is what the majority of the players do for the majority of the time spent in game. Is this not the most important area that should be addressed when it comes to balance?
So it’s a matter of would you like balance in everyday game play or do you want to make sure all the 10k paragon players for each class can clear 141?
Another way to put it. Most people feel that the more demanding builds should be the ones that can clear the highest. If Blizz decided to take that route in balancing those builds to 141…It is very likely they won’t translate to utility builds that can be used for speeds and may not fit into groups. If they were buffing at least a couple builds from each class to 141 then this discussion is moot because the most likely outcome would be a healthier balance across the board.
I hate that I have to explain this to a teenager.
I’m far away from being a teenager, the only one that acts like a teenager is you, we don’t call other people clowns, trolls, or incite riots on forums.
See my point?
You don’t have any point in the wall charge conversation, because you have posted countless times in forums that charge build was 100% dependant on wall charge, and you were lying, because darkpatator did a high clear without it. Even darkpatator explained in streams that he got screwed by RNG that clear and could have gone a bit higher, but back in that time the barbarian horde started to bash darkpatator and he took a break from pushing with barb. All that thing you said about RG, was explained by darkpatator long time ago on one of his streams so you are not teaching me nothing new, and that thing don’t change the fact that the clear was without wall charge.
Clear potential is not the same as an actual clear. Do you understand the difference?
I understand that thing, the one that don’t understand it was you, when darkpatator said in the PTR that 140 was not the cap for WW barb at 200%, and you called him a liar lmao.
On second thought, don’t worry about it. The last thing I want is to continue a conversation with you.
It’s so funny how you consider yourself a rockstar after the barbarian buff proposal lmao, your ego is in the skies and you clearly are in state of denial about the perfomance of barbarians, even if you don’t like the discussion about balance, it will last until WW gets nerfed or they decide to public say that WW clearing 146 is ok.
And i really don’t care if you reply or not, understand Free, you are not important, you arguments are weak and a very easy to break.
Disagreement is one thing, but misrepresentation is a whole other basket of boring.
That’s not what he called him a liar about and you know it.
Now you’re just straight up drinking table guys kool-aide.
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