Necro: Guardians vs Aughilds vs Captains

PTR Feedback
1

I see a lot of people saying that Guardian’s is bad, that Aughild’s is better, and Captains even better still.

I’ve done some theorycrafting, and this does not seem correct to me.

Based on my build (Trag Blood Nova, with Mantle of Channeling + Stone of Jordan), using the Guardian’s set I can potentially get single target damage of 36.8T/sec using Guardian’s.

If I use Aughild’s, this is reduced to just 33.7T/sec, and using Captain Crimson’s it’s even lower at 23.7T.

At maximum enemies (25 for Blood Nova/Iron Rose), these are:
150.3T, 137.8T, and 96.8T respectively.

The main issue with Captain Crimson’s is that it does not have a bracer, so you lose the non-set piece of Armor in order to get this buff. You would have to choose a different bracer, and the best one for pure DPS (as there aren’t any Necro has for a Death Nova build) is Lacuni Prowlers… It appears that you can’t roll +physical damage on this, so you’d lose the 20% damage from that, but you can get crit chance and attack speed.

This means that I can’t get the +25% damage output (and incoming reduction) that Mantle of Channeling provides, and the CDR => damage bonus means giving up vitality/crit/attack speed in order to take CDR, which ‘might’ give you better output but at a great disadvantage, poor survivability (on top of the removal of the 25% survivability from Channeling).

Aughild’s does give a massive damage bonus (especially to elites), but this does not out perform the intellect bonus from Guardians. I’ve not calculated the difference in survivability. The difference would be that with Guardian’s we have more health + healing whereas with Aughild’s we take less damage.

Does anyone have anything more concrete?
As far as I can tell Guardian wins.

2 Likes
2

after the last patch, i agree
I think this has more to do with/ for in my testing im using belt /bracers, chanel shoulders> box is open as extra slot ! <key
that is my testing, and i have more worked the bone set than blood,

but your numbers variance are what im seeing too,
// YES

3

ok sorry i spoke little to soon did not run augs after patch,
aug does more damage sinificantly but very glass cannon, i still think guardians is better, but i need to look closer at this issue and not make snap judgement, im testing it on inariuse nova curently im 3rd listed with gardians getting beat with augs, have to see if i can get more def in it and keep damage, so i guess i need to sht up and test lol gg ty

4

I imagine it’s down to gearing. The more base stats you have (so everything primal) the better Guardian will be. Aughild’s is likely better for damage output prior to that, but survivability could go either way.

I’ll have to look at how survivability works between the 2 sets… 1 is DR and the other is health pool and healing, so it’s hard to compare like-for-like. It could mean that Guardian’s is not quite strong enough though, because if you have to have the best gear to get the most out of it, most people aren’t going to switch to it at all.

5

that is what im seeing, gaurdians is more versitle and better surviable i am doing more damage by a zero with augs but i die and lose time, so ya im ollowing the same map will report what i find or jst look at record, trag and inariuse are very close to perormance right now so they are mostly interchangable im just running fastest of 120 gr right now, not a fan of trag but it gives good baise line ty

6

I was testing that right know, it does not benefit from augs, but, works with gems.

1 Like
7

Did a little bit of testing and the above math seems to check out.

Survivability is absolutely trash with both Aughild’s and Captain Crimsons, and neither of them seem to do as much damage either (with Crimson’s appearing to be way behind even with over 43% CDR). So Guardian’s is looking set to replace them both, at least for non CDR based builds that need a lot of toughness.

8

The key phrase is “for necro”.

A lot of the commentary on the sets has been pretty class generic. I’m finding similar that I do like Guardian but really just on Necro because the class has a general dearth of bracer legendaries for most builds. I tend to like Aughilds for the same reason, though the massive cooldown requirements of the class often favor Captain Crimson.

9

How can you not gear +20% physical elemental on Lacuni on PTR? You have infinite mats, just reforge it.

Guardian problem is its buffed by BASE main stat, providing a STATIC increase. As you climb the gear ladder, trifecta and quadfecta are more appealing to diminishable main stat gained through paragon. If you are sub 2k -3K, sure Guardian offers best utility. But if you are 3k? 4k?6k?10k? 20K? See where this is heading?

You do know that simulacrum proc area damage right? Hence some area damage is more appealing in push tier, particularly if you can group mobs well.

You also need attack speed or manage attack speed. You need to sit between 1.66-1.82 panel APS for optimum Nova tick rate/Iron Rose ICD. 1.66 seems more appealing than 1.82, that is 1.66/1.30(base scythe att spd) = 1.28 or 28% att spd on gear. Take away 10% from paragon, that is 18%, meaning need 3x att spd rolls, on glove, maybe 2 rings. If you roll on scythe, 1.30x1.07 = 1.391 or 1.40 in game. 1.66/1.40 = 1.18… meaning still 2x att spd to be geared, glove and 1 of rings. Regardless which option, you ll lose 1000 to 2000 main stat from optimizing for area damage. With the cap of 25 mobs, AD is even more important. True its questionable how effective AD is for single applications or individual ability to group mobs, but if you manage it well, its super effective.

As you can see, the base main stat can drop to 6900 or even 5900, we can use it to trace break even point for main stat (intelligence) in terms of damage perspective (you want to kill mobs faster)

Guardian vs Augilds:

7900/0.69(elite) and 0.30 (trash) = 11.5K(1K full aug) and 26K(3k ish full aug)
6900/0.69 and 0.30 = 10K(1K with aug) and 23K(2K with aug)
5900/0.69 and 0.30 = 8.5K and 20K (same paragon)

Regarding toughness, I d like to share some study I have on all res and armor

Armor:
10,000 = 74% reduction, around 1K paragon for dex/str class
20,000 =85.10% or 74% increase, around 2K paragon for dex/str class
30,000 = 89.55% or 43% increase, around 3K paragon for dex/str class
40,000 = 91.95% or 30% increase, around 4k paragon for dex/str class

All Res:
1000 = 74% reduction
2000 = 85.1% reduction or 74% increase , around 1K paragon for Int classes
3000 = 89.55% reduction or 43% increase, around 2K paragon for Int classes
4000 = 91.95% reduction or 30% increase , around 4K paragon for Int classes

Guardian main stat is HUGE in the 1-2K paragon range, especially hitting that 85.1% AR reduction bracket.

Which is better really is paragon related and what stage of gearing you are in or aiming for. Personally, I think its better if Guardian provides a rawer, more direct percentage base on current main stat approach. Another word, DYNAMIC increase. Perhaps dull and boring, but the return will be much greater as you climb up in paragon.

I don’t believe Crimson suits Tragoul Nova too well. Sure I got more blood rush uptime in bad situations, but its too costly. Belt slot meaning losing dayntee, which I think is core gear, I d rather keep dayntee and option to drop aquila for mantle of channeling instead. As you said, no bracer for this set, lacuni is not very beneficial as we dont need crazy att spd. Whether 1000 INT or 105-210 damage range (5.26% ish return with off hand builds) is kina pale comparing to Guardian or Augild setups.

1 Like
10

I believe context is important here generally speaking.

Sure, guardian’s hit diminishing returns the more paragon/higher augments you wear, but over 98% of the player base will never hit 3k paragon in a single season, yet alone 2k paragon.

With that said, guardian’s is a significant upgrade to the vast majority of the population if your class/build can fit it in. Gaurdian’s is also really good regardless of paragon level if you don’t have give up ring slot/rrog/important slots to fit the 2pc (aka S6 impale). It’s also really good on followers, allowing you to gear them tanky enough without the need of relying on pet builds (enforcer).

It’s a very versatile set, one that gives a bit of umph to 98% of the playerbase, especially if the goal is to get more people interested in playing seasons (the 2% of players and/or botters are going to play regardless).

4 Likes
11

Well, people need to understand why they pick certain gears over others, not just blindly follow others right?

End of day, you need to pick the best option for your scenario.

12

So the Season not only gets themed items, the few refactored items that are accessible to non-season players are now tuned for seasons because 98% —

Is it asking too much for the devs to put 2% more effort into making Guardian’s useful to us 2%? The novelty of being 800 paragon wears off quickly —

1 Like
13

The 2% was regarding the 10+ hour daily rat runners and botters/account shares on season. Non-season has much bigger problems as an abandoned wasteland.

Aughilds is not universal either, being more useful at higher paragon given it’s glassy nature and tradeoff for most classes, so is there a reason why the opposite can’t co-exist as well? People can still opt for guardian at higher paragon just like low paragon players can opt for aughilds if one can manage it right?

For instance, on DH PTR, i use 2pc Guardian+CoE for both shadow and UE. I’ll still use that same combo on my Non-season character, since it’ll still be more DPS output on my near 5.5k para character and I’m not giving up anything game breaking. Glassy, yes, but that’s what all that non-season paragon is for right? :wink:

Can actually do something similar on my PTR wizard as well. Much like with the other 2 neutral sets, you can’t always fit them and they’ll be better options. Guardian is no different here.

14

Once it’s up on Maxroll it’s going to be copy/paste anyways with all of the scenarios written out, but I get what you mean.

15

Strange labeling when there are still many players who do NS. I get ‘good’ group invites each time I sign into NS from different players, at different times of the day without seeking them. S26 no-theme might be part of the reason.

The Aughild’s vs Guardian’s example is countered by: Strongarm’s + Witching Hour + Unity/Elusive. Outside of Strafe Impale, I know which setup I’d take for regular S6 Impale at 3k paragon for pushes.

Why not just extend the longevity of Guardian’s past 2-3k paragon by sticking another 20% damage on the 3pc?

Regular Impale
800 Paragon (GJ 2pc + Unity/Elusive)
2000 Paragon (GJ 3pc w/ RoRG)
5000+ Paragon (Aughild/Crimson or GJ if your build is still too fragile)

There are S6 and N6 variants that I’d like to try but cannot because the set only gives me 15% damage.

16

Stupid question. Does guardian stat bonus take in consideration for augment and gems as well?

17
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18

I’m not sure why people thing that Paragon scaling works in favor of Aughild’s or Crimson.

You don’t get CDR from Paragon past the initial 800, so Crimson caps it’s damage bonus based on gear at <=800 paragon.

Aughild’s is a flat % damage bonus, 45% total when fighting elites (and this I believe is additive to any ‘damage %’ and ‘elite damage %’ bonus, so it’s not truly a 45% bonus.

If we look at how damage is modified by Aughild’s and Guardians, because Crimson isn’t even worth comparing here I don’t see how they compare either.

If you have all non-ancient items, maxed intellect stat, 1h + off-hand, and all gems using intellect (except helm + weapon + jewellry) then you’re going to be looking at 9367 intellect.

This gives you a 9,367% damage increase.
If you equip Aughild’s this is 13,582% at this level but Guardian’s is at 18,734%.

If you have maxed out Ancients you get 11,817% bonus baseline.
If you equip Aughild’s this is 17,135% at this level but Guardian’s is at 23,634%.

So Guardian’s is more powerful with non-ancient gear than Aughild’s is with primals (0 paragon).

Even if you fully augment your gear, at level 150 intellect on every item, Aughild’s is bad.

Fully Augmented at 150 20,097% damage.
If you equip Aughild’s this is 29,141% at this level but Guardian’s is at 33,384%.

The gap does close a little with Augments, but not much.
If after you’ve got all primal, with all 150 augments you add paragon.

If you stick 150 points in to Intellect Paragon at 800 paragon:
Guardian’s: 34,134%
Aughild’s: 30,228%

If you stick 350 points in to Intellect Paragon at 1000 paragon:
Guardian’s: 35,134%
Aughild’s: 31,678%

If you stick 1,350 points in to Intellect Paragon at 2000 paragon:
Guardian’s: 40,134%
Aughild’s: 38,928%

If you stick 2,350 points in to Intellect Paragon at 3000 paragon:
Guardian’s: 45,134%
Aughild’s: 46,178%

Don’t forget, not only do you need to be at or close to 3k paragon before the damage is better with Aughild’s, but you lose a ton of Survivability using that set.

2 Likes
19

Main Stat suffers diminishing returns (relatively speaking). At higher paragon levels players begin rolling off main stat in favor of other stats such as CDR, Area Damage, Elemental Damage or any other stat that may conflict. Since they cannot get those stats from paragon any longer they get their main stat from paragon.

Rolling off main stat obviously hurts Guardian’s damage in comparison to those other sets.

20

I wasn’t aware people did that.

That would indeed reduced the damage output of the set, by quite a lot.
But similarly it would reduce your survivability even more (massive loss of armor/resistances).

Wouldn’t the loss in survivability make Guardian’s more interesting? Perhaps that’s where Crimson’s starts to shine, with the loss of main stat you’d gain more DR from Crimsons than you would Aughild’s and a bigger damage increase if you’re rolling CDR on every item.

Wouldn’t this mean that Aughild’s is only better than Guardian’s when Crimsons is better than Aughild’s?

It seems to me that Aughild’s is going to be a dead set now.