Mirror images nerf WHERE

It’s evident with the recent Bone Spear and AoV HF nerfs that the other meta DPS top dog was left inexplicably untouched. I’m of course talking about Firebird Mirror Images (FB MI). This is made more startling by ethereals, sending FB MI’s power through the roof via a whopping 300% sheet damage boost in Mang Song’s Lesson.

This means more drastic 150 time attacks in groups as well as solo, in the manner of Season 22, as well as a potential return of the dreaded 3-support meta.

Granted, this wouldn’t be so bad if it weren’t for FB MI’s underwhelming playstyle:

  • Horribly unreliable pet AI
  • Reliance on channeling/standing still
  • (Regarding solo) A playstyle that revolves around killing elites to the exclusion of trash, so that you are rewarded for fishing elites rather than skillfully creating density

With that in mind FB MI can be nerfed in a simple way:

  • Remove the interaction of MIs with FB 6 piece

This would enable FB flame blades–a potentially much more exciting build–to become competitive, and open the door for other RGK builds (including flame blades itself).



I don’t like outliers and under-performers.

  • No fun seeing the same class/combo everywhere you go.

  • More stimulating to experience different group compositions each time you sign in.

I’d say address MI, Twister and A6I2 Bombs, each one needs -3GRs.


I’m surprised MI even made it past PTR, yet alone untouched this PTR considering the whole point of the redesign is for Wizards NOT to rely on channeling with Deathwish.

MI’s A.I. was never designed to be damage dealers in any way. They were designed to distract, which is why they “appear” derpy as hell at times because they are looking for targets to distract.


If there aren’t any major buffs added during the course of this ptr, then firebird getting nerf by the next ptr is almost guaranteed. After all, this wouldn’t be the first time a set/build went without a nerf, despite it overperforming in Blizzard eyes. It’s only a matter of time.

Tbh, I would love if mirror images were improved in both the dps and taunting department, but such improvements should come via the addition/modification of legendary items and/or perhaps buffing the skill itself (unlikely ofc).

with already 3 set-changes rolled out …

either they let it go for another 1-2 seasons (esp. if you keep in mind wich power-boost the necro gets in s24 i can´t understand theyr :wine_glass: ) or they are looking into a way how to handle the set itself.

The way MI functions with FB I would consider a bug. Mirror Images should have a proc coefficient of zero, which means they cannot proc FB.

Odd that is doesn’t work with Wand of Woh, but does with mirror Images.


This was the biggest surprise to me as well.

They specifically tried to design Firebird’s to be a non-channeling build by making it so that Disintegrate doesn’t trigger FB6 damage procs. It’s pretty clear they didn’t want it to be a channeling build.

Then the Mirror Images variant came out. I assumed they decided it was too late in the previous cycle to address, so they’d leave it for a season then address it this patch. But they haven’t.

It’s a shame, because the non-channeling variants (e.g. manual Flame Blades) are actually pretty fun. I enjoy the manual Flame Blades variant a lot more, but it’s completely left in the dust by Mirror Images.

I was really hoping they’d remove the Mirror Images interaction, then buff regular FB6 a bit to compensate (e.g. so that manual Flame Blades comes out somewhere ahead of where it is now, but behind where Mirror Images is now). It’s a real shame they just left it alone for 2.7.1.


I was hoping for them to remove the MI interaction and allow FB6 to proc from each wand of woh explosion. Change it to a EB-set. That’s a lot more fun to play. FlashFire was always popular.

Tinne, how many times does Chain Reaction explode? Is it 9, or 12 explosions with Wand of Woh? I seem to remember Chain Reaction replacing the initial explosion for 3 smaller ones, but it doesn’t read like that anymore. Perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me.

Should be 12. I think it’s always been that way. The key word is “additional”. That implies that it adds 3 more, not replacing the original.

For non-Chain Reaction runes, Wand of Woh adds 3 more explosions, so you go from 1 explosion to 4. For Chain Reaction, you go from 3 to 12.

I don’t play EB very much except sometimes early in a season if I happen to get EB drops, but if I think it’s always been 12 that go off.

I would have sworn on a stack of bibles Chain Reaction replaced the first explosion with three smaller ones. It used to read that way. Doesn’t anymore. I played Flashfire way back in the day a LOT. I was positive. I wonder if/when it was changed.

Your memory may well be right, as sometimes things get changed without anybody ever noticing for quite a while. For instance, the Barb skills Sword + Board and Relentless (both of which grant RCR under certain conditions) used to not interact with the Crimson set to give additional toughness, even though the extra RCR from those skills would show up on your sheet.

Prokahn filed a bug report, heard nothing about it, and nothing was done. Later on, I filed another bug report, this time with video evidence, heard nothing about it, and nothing was done… at least for several months.

A year or so later I ended up re-checking, and the issue had been fixed. But at no time did we ever hear that they had received the issue, and were looking into it, or that it was or was not a bug (it was always possible that they had intended Crimson to not interact with those skills), or that the interaction had been changed.

Just… silence…

We are working to improve communication? Okay? OKAY?? WHY DON’T YOU BELIEVE US?

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All very reasonable responses here. One issue that reinforces the “kill elites only” playstyle and prevents new FB from being a general damage set, is the inability of the 6p bonus to proc area damage. This should also be fixed, before builds like FB EB become viable.

I was hoping that some Ethereal weapons would bridge the gap between MI channeled FB and non-MI, manual spells but alas it actually made it worse since our weapons lack anything special other than basic damage mods that literally every other class gets (and less of fyi).

Appreciate the title btw, for it’s not the Firebird set that needs a nerf it’s MI.

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If they do nerf MI, Firebird’s will be a LOT less fluid to play, you’ll have to manage disintegrate, combustion, Flame Blades, Deathwish and Explosive Blast/OoiD Not even talking about the power level. It’ll go from “really fun” to “okay, it’s still our best set.”

I’d rather see them redesign it yet AGAIN until they finally get it right with an EB-based set built around Chain Reaction with no disintegrate necessary.

Deathwish, man. It's in every build we have.

Not sure how that’d be the case. Flame blades FB should be very fluid to play, more so than MI, as you don’t have to channel/manage Deathwish or pet AI. Explosive Blast/OoiD remains awkward, but this is a topic for another thread.

Nah, FB should strive to be a general dmg set like Tal Rasha rather than tied to one or few skills. And honestly I’m ambivalent about the current rework, as I thought the old playstyle of igniting elites for stacks was very interesting and unique.

Wizard is overpowered as compared to other classes and absolutely needs to be nerfed.

Once monk bug is fixed, wizard will overshadow the new monk set too.

No he’s technically right, it is less fluid on a player level. Instead of just holding down channel and pushing MI (even more fluid now that we can see how many are active), you’re actively attacking with your chosen spell after stopping channeling all while keeping up EB which you need to be in range vs MI’s can just proc them so stopping to get in the action.

However when you consider the unreliable efficiency that comes with the MI AI (especially on RG) it losses effectiveness on speed runs vs something like manual blades that I use all the time on live and PTR despite the MI being smoother or easier to play.

Obviously once you really start pushing your limits and things don’t die in the blink of a mouse click, MI gains the advantage because when they do hit they’ll hit way harder.

I have the Ronin guy on ignore. I realized early on he wasn’t worth any discussion. Case in point? This one.

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Depends on what you mean by ‘fluid’. Having tested the Flame Blades build now, I’m only losing 8 Combustion stacks while stopping channeling to flame blade on fire cycle (using CoE here as the build should). This can be recovered immediately by channeling afterwards. The playstyle parallels Frozen Orb where you must stack Triumvirate stacks with a generator outside of cold cycle. To me this rotation-based gameplay is much more ‘fluid’ (and engaging) than having to manage unreliable pet AI.

As for EB, both builds have to run it so there is no point of comparison to be drawn here. And you have to be in melee range for flame blades anyway.