do we really need infinite char progression or would it be enough to have infinite dungeons and leaderboards for that or races etc?
isnt’t it all about what we are able to do after we hit max lvl at endgame?
yep
pretty much that
I never understood, why they kept raising the level cap in every expansion of WoW… It makes all your previous accomplishments completely senseless.
I would like a level cap at 100 with diminishing return, such that the last 10, maybe even 20 levels are not super important, but give you only a small gain in power. That way, you could for example make the first expansion without any raising of the level cap. Just implement more content, more items, some additional PvP arenas/modes, a new act / more story. The new items can also be better than the old ones, but it would not lead to the old items being complete trash, even though they were the most epic stuff ever in the whole world, before the expansion came… That’s absolutely not authentic IMO.
With the lvl 100 system you could also raise the level cap in later expansions, and introduce new areas, where you get a looot of xp, so now you can reach level 90-100 easily, but 110 is still freaking hard. Because of the diminishing return, old stuff would still be ok-ish and if the best vanilla items turn out to be weak compared to the high end stuff from the 4th expansion, it is also ok IMO, just don’t reset all my gear achievements within 2 hours of play time, like in WoW. 
Lots of good stuff in here. To further emphasize, a good curve would be similar to what D2 did. If we imagine a line graph, the top 10-20 percent of that line is maximum power, and should be much more difficult to reach – but also not as necessary, more so as you climb.
This helps to guarantee something VERY important in an ARPG - build diversity. Not just that, but a large amount of viable builds is way easier to accomplish this way! Not every build needs to be created for the end-est of endgame (this is the case in other ARPGs already) but they’re good and open-ended enough due to the design of the game, to where somebody can take it and refine it further themselves. There’s your sense of community.
On top of that, many casual players won’t be interested, but they just might be the type who wants to look up an 80 percent build to open up their mind to new possibilities. This is a very positive feature for a game. Players who decide they like the game so much they want to delve DEEPER now have the option to do so with the ‘deep cut’ builds. This isn’t even including alts, and is a great way to create replayability.
The developer’s challenge is to balance threefold - diminished raw power gains with the ‘feeling of need’ to achieve them, while ensuring these power gains feel satisfying - typically in the realm of utility & convenience. I say this because it is here the game can be seen in a whole new way, as by this point players know what increased power looks like. At this point a refined synergy/efficiency of your character’s attributes is more desired
Definitely prefer finite progression. I also don’t want reaching that finite point to be necessary for endgame to begin.
It goes hand in hand with the difficulty cap. It should all have a finite point but make it so the last maybe 10, 15% before level cap is very time consuming and not necessarily super important. As others have mentioned, similar to D2.
Most if not all endgame builds were fully functional at lvl 90 if not before. And getting those last 9 levels would increase your power sure, but you didn’t NEED it to do endgame.
IMO the “endless” feeling in a Diablo game should come from knowing you’ll never find the perfect stats on every piece of gear you need, not from leveling forever for minor stat increases. Everything doesn’t need to be endless to preserve replayability.
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That’s funny; world of warcraft is finite and has all the issues in the negative portion of your list and very few of the positives. The ever changing builds do create a strong community in D3.
Paragon as is isn’t interesting, capped or not. If the system is actually interesting then I doubt people would really care all that much, except the ultra casuals who gradually get left behind because they don’t play more than a few hours a month.
Seems like your grasping at straws to prove a point, but it’s the wrong point. Should be arguing for an interesting progression system first; then take the topic of caps.
They asked for feedback on whether an infinite/finite system and that’s what I gave. The topic of infinite/finite has a lot to do with how it ends, and I have related to how both D2/D3 did things. Of course if you’d like to add something…
so most of the opinions are these 2
do it like in D2, just very hard to reach max level and then its done
include an infinite system after max level but not power gaining, just other achievements
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having leveling systems on top of leveling systems is a bad idea and just redundant. we need one leveling system. we need it to represent character experience. we don’t want to put the maximum level number on a pedestal. the idea of reaching a point where your character can no longer improve itself makes no sense to me. it feels broken when you hit a cap. the cap should be there just as an end to the numbers, not as a goal. the max level possible should take FOREVER to get to.
make the late game progression system have to do with leveling artisans or something like that in order to craft amazing items that lower level artisans can’t. endgame character progression does not have to come from overlapping levels on a character, it can come from items or other things in the world.
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Pretty much… Only that I personally would add things like “Arena runs”, not necessarily PvP but you know… Defeat 1 group of mobs another appear, similar to Baal’s challenge, only this would look more like “Countess” run in terms of reward, i.e. each round you gain a craftable mat that at the end can create a jewel or gem or even a potion with specific powers that give temporary bonuses & such
Meaning those that would rather not grind the endgame but still wanna take a challenge at harder dungeons might do it less-efficiently undergeared but with temporary buffs 
yea, infinite challenges are good i guess?
i think, thats what they are planing with the key dungeons
Infinite or Finite Progression?
in this aRPG franchise, mobblasting means, on itself, infinite fun.
-all features added to the sound and visuals, can be good or bad, even as personal preference, so it’s hard to defend an opinion here.
Completely disagree.
I’d argue it doesn’t feel “broken” at all to hit a cap. It shouldn’t feel “broken” to hit a cap. It is satisfying to hit a cap after you’ve put in the hours to get there.
Level cap should be difficult and time consuming enough to reach that it feels like forever but getting there is rewarding (not necessarily with character power either). Make it equivalent to 1000 hours, or whatever it is that feels like “forever” enough but there needs to be an end.
Agree with this though. Plenty of other facets of the game to experiment with endgame progression that don’t involve thousands of paragon levels.
depends what you mean by “progression”.
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Levels(Base levels or paragons)? should ideally be Finite, at some point you should reach the end of gaining power and a number just by playing.
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gear? Should ideally be infinite, but at some point the upgrades should be miniscule or sidegrades at best. IE my best item is 998 / 1000 and there’s a small chance it could be 1000/1000 and i can chase that if i want to or i can just say enough is enough and move on. However when i get that 1000/1000 item or even that 999/1000 item? I’m sure as glad to see my number go up by 1. Lol
when i hit a cap, it feels awkward. like I’m bumping into an invisible wall. it just feels like me and the game are staring at each other in awkwardness. i shouldn’t be hitting a wall, i should be continuing to progress with massive diminishing returns at end game. i need to feel like there’s no invisible wall. i got the invisible wall feeling HARD with d3 because you hit the wall so quickly then the bandaid fake paragon levels start up. i never had the invisible wall feeling in d2 even though a cap existed. the cap was just there as a cap, the game didn’t revolve around that cap level number like d3.
is diablo 3 the only arpg you ever played?
I like finite a lot more. Paragon levels seemed silly and I did not enjoy them from a design standpoint. There were a host of problems with it.
I like Path of Exile’s approach the most, I think. Getting to the end level was a task that few players will ever do, but you will still level up a good amount. But more important than levels(whether you hit cap or not) is variety. Does the game offer enough replayability and variety to keep me playing. Is there more and more for me to try? Does it offer interesting builds I want to try out? Does it offer new content occasionally that brings me back to try more stuff out? Such as bosses, instances, items, challenges, etc. Competitions?
There is a lot of stuff there and it’s a matter of making it diverse and interesting enough to bring me back. And if you do seasons, make them interesting. What is being done on D3 is a step in the right direction.
I much prefer to play a game with a finite storyline, but with an increasing difficulty in endgame. I want to spend 90% of my playtime working towards an incredibly difficult reward (boss kill, BiS gear, perfect build etc) instead of playing meaningless content because there is no ceiling.
Having a ceiling is not bad game design, but making the ceiling hard to get to makes it worthwhile.
“Nobody climbs a mountain coz its easy”
Infinite is just objectively bad. You either end up where levels provide too much power and the game is impossible to balance. Or it is filled with diminishing returns where after level ‘x’ there is no real progression of your character happening. Just a number that increases with no character improvement.
As for the argument ‘I like the feeling of progression’. Who cares? It’s bad for the game, period. There are other things to get excited for and I really don’t know why you want to depend on an infinite leveling system for excitement in a game. I’m sure that +5 main stat feels rewarding every time.
Largely it is due to people being conditioned to giant blinking buttons and confetti any time an achievement is reached…they suddenly can’t go without it even though interestingly everything was just fine before that idea arrived.