I haven’t posted around here in a while. I saw the recent update and wanted to add some thoughts as we were encouraged to do so. I believe an infinite system is infinitely worse.
FINITE PROGRESSION
-Provides a sense of completion/satisfaction/closure
-More social; easier to share concepts & tips w/ other players
-Provides an easy gateway to secondary/tertiary game goals/modes
-Goals more easily outlined
-Easier to modify with & for the onset of new expansions
My advice: Add to this system “abstract infinity aspects” - secondary benefits to other characters/players (e.g. MF characters in D2). This way, the sense of ‘endless’ can be preserved in a way which does not affect the single character’s progression (i.e. horizontal more than vertical.)
INFINITE SYSTEM
-Devs can easily lose control of depth deterioration long-term
-Harder to balance
-Less tangible
-Extremely ‘FoTM’ in design & feel
-Meaningful milestones deteriorate rapidly
-Variety can quickly reduce to nigh-zero
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I prefer infinite system. I like the feeling that I am progressing each time I log off of a game. If everything is already capped then there’s no more of that “I can become stonger” feeling.
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90% finite unless specific mod where a character progression is infinite (say some sort of a PvP ranking brawl stuff or whatever)
I’d guess there could be specific dungeons where you’d get extra bonuses for that kind of particular dungeons but outside of them you’d be “normal” without “paragon points” or whatever there might be as an “in-dungeon” (say leader-reputation points or slayer-reputation) bonus kind of thing
Ofc. that would feel super weird but should probably find a different kind of endgame to have a feel that the game is not all about grind, but also give those guys that are competitive a chance to shine/showoff
But again, this is just a top-of-my-head kind of thing, not really well thougth out tbh 
There is nothing wrong with a game having an end. But in the days of live services, everything has to last forever so it can be monetized.
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The irony of wanting an infinite system is it becomes infinitely more difficult for finite beings (devs) to assign unavoidably finite amounts of meaning to it. Ultimately this kind of system dies out exactly the same way a finite one does, only less memorably due to the nature of constant change with no meaning in between the lines. It also suffers in replayability since there are no memorable events to partake in again. It comes with something of an “anti-nostalgia” effect.
People seem to right now crave two things which cannot coexist - infinity and specialty. At some point or another, everybody has to pick one.
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The game should have such hard endgame contents, that you have to farm hard AF for gear, to be able to beat it
Thats much more fun and satisfaction, when you finally reach it
When you can just “level up” to be able to kill bosses, you will never actually get to understand the game
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Whilest that is true don’t think everything should 100% rely upon hard grind for endgame IMO, perhaps have something like “weekly events” where extra hard dungeons would be open for “masses” without necessarily having keys for them, or maybe an “arena mode” where you’d fight a whole lot of rounds in order to gain some “specific” potions you could use for some temporary buff later on…
I agree that not everything should be about grinding. Those there are the kind of ideas which help bridge the gap while allowing these things to exist separately but within the same game (i.e. everybody is happy)
I just mean
Infinite grinding for more and more stats is super boring while its more fun, to get together your dream build and finally be able to kill that 1 boss in hell or what ever
Let ppl grind for something specific that makes them stronger and not just an other 2k paragon levels
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I think games need limits. Infinite progression will eventually just boil down to a very very small stat gain for an increasingly large amount of time.
That’s not interesting.
It’s perfectly fine to have an end to a character, with all their goals complete. All their leveling and power gain complete.
If the game is good then if you want to continue, you can start a new character.
People do that all the time with other finite games. Not just rpgs, but pretty much any single game. Start a new playthrough and enjoy the journey again.
Everyone will burn out eventually but fun games can last longer just because the core game is fun, not because they are infinite in progression.
It’s why things like DotA last as long as they do. A single game is finite, the gameplay is infinite.
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I agree that player level shoud be finite but if you want player to keep playing it’s must be something infinite to play with in the game, let’s find out what is it perfect to be infinite
I’ve played 3 systems that essentially run the whole gamut.
- D3 paragon and gear: effectively infinite.
- Guild Wars 2 masteries and gear: very, very finite. Max character level and gear level hasn’t changed since release.
- WoW gear: half-way between the two. Gear increases at set intervals over the xpack and then get’s reset for the next xpac.
I prefer the half-way approach but not like its done in wow.
There is absolutely something 100% refreshing about hitting a point where “you’re done” and can’t add any more power to your character, provided that its not a permanent state and provided that there is still more stuff to do in the meantime with that character.
Instead of focusing on the character’s power progression, you can finish exploring the world, complete all the stories (assuming that those stories are unique just to your character), participate in raids, challenge dungeons, and competitive/rated pvp. Or work on alts.
But “done” shouldn’t be the permanent state. There should be an expansion or something that allows you to pick up that previously done character and progress again. Not a full reset, like D3 seasons. Not a “all gear is now trash” either like wow; I would be against gear/item obsolescence (what was bis 2 years ago, should still be an viable option tomorrow). And definitely not by adding more character levels (wow currently has 120 levels and it sucks!).
The focus should be on adding new abilities or enhancing existing abilities. Not sure how that would all work though.
There should also be a balance between alt-friendly (d3 and gw2) and alt-hostile (wow) approaches. Some things should be character specific and some things should be account-level changes.
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Expect something like WoW. And even D3 is like WoW if you think about it. While it only has 1 expansion, it does increase the level cap and you need to find higher level gear.
I’m… really on the fence here. Personally, I prefer a mix of WoW and D2. Meaning every expansion does add higher level items, but it doesn’t necessarily mean they are better than a lower level item.
This is achieved by removing anything from the item that can correlate with damage ie main stat, damage, etc.
Maybe you found an item with MF, resists, cast rate, etc this item should still be good until you find another with the stats you need for your build. Higher level shouldn’t automatically mean “upgrade”.
If d3 disabled the legendary and set abilities on all of the original level 60 gear (which it did not do), then it would be kind of like wow.
D3 paragon is an infinite progression system and its gear can be Augmented essentially making for infinite power creep in the hands of players. WoW has significant power creep over the course of an expansion but its controlled by Blizz. When Blizz releases a content patch for an expansion, there’s an automatic power bump. And then everything is reset for the next expansion. You go from god-like power (acquired over a couple of years) to suddenly getting smacked around by the weakest life forms.
I don’t like how wow handles its content obsolescence at all. There has to be better alternatives.
Depends what you mean by infinite… in D2 you always a little something to improve, you were never entirely done… unless you were botting 24/7 then yeah you could have all perfect gear and lvl 99, but normally anyone would just start a new character before then
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Thats the thing about D2
It was finite but gave u so much to do, most ppl wont even finish it
Thats the goal
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What they need is to commit to a difficulty cap. No more “infinite scaling difficulty” that makes you feel like you never really finish anything.
In terms of improving a character, there should always be room for improvement, even if the improvement is really small
The way I see it is they should make dungeons scale by “monsters level” (I.e. Monsters lvl 120 = highest difficulty, but your character’s lvl cap is 80)
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Finite all the way. You can always reset “completion” of characters.
Characters can get old and simply die, or… you can re-roll an alt, this is especially potential if the ‘completing’ aspect is not long and drawn out, and impossible when the treadmill has an endless source of energy to keep its gears grinding.
How about consequences of death. A friendly way I’ve seen this done well is with Asheron’s Call. They had a ‘vitae penalty’ where dying resulted in a 10 or 15% vitae penalty, essentially reducing your current power level by that much. To eliminate the vitae you simply needed to gain experience while in your weakened state. All it really did was slow you down, which is why dying is suppose to do and does anyway.
Edit: you could essentially get into trouble if you died repeatedly and gained upwards of 90% vitae penalty.
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Interesting stuff in this discussion.
One thing that caught my attention most tho, is the horizontal vs. vertical.
And horizontal is the thing that D3 has always lacked. It’s nice to be able to put my finger on this finally.
Speaking as someone who completed SJ in 5 days* and is now done for the season. (*yeah, don’t laugh, that’s actually good, for me! ;P)
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