Increases in skill damage % vs sheet damage

Console Discussion
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Hoping to check an assumption here.

Take Gazing Demise as an example as I’ve been dropping shards into the Mundunugu build lately.

Currently using a legendary with 10crit, 8cd, 15sb and 149% Spirit Barrage.

I’m assuming any ancient drop needs to be similarly high on Spirit Barrage to serve as a dps upgrade as the sheet damage increases from the other stats make less difference to dps.

e.g.
The highest Spirit Barrage on an ancient so far is 137% with 9crit, no CD and otherwise better stats. Putting aside losing CD… Equipping it in place of the 149% legendary gives a sheet damage increase of 4% (or 9% with aug from current gems). This still seems it would fall short of the 149% Spirit Barrage modifier which I assume applies on top of all else.

This sheet damage % increase reduces the higher that mainstat / sheet damage is pushed. Currently sheet damage is pretty low (1411) as I’ve left paragon in Vitality for this build and bp/leg gems are armor. Just using it to see how fast bounties can be run with at the moment so warzech in place of lakumba’s.

I’ve assumed elemental damage % modifiers apply in the same way as the skill modifier.

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Sheet damage is nothing…a crappy item with 149% legendary power will beat hands down the Ancient one with 137%.

D3 is all about the legendary affix/set bonus damage. Sheet damage is less of a concern.

D3Planner is your friend here…simply pump in the two items and see the difference,

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3

Thanks for confirming, it sorta made sense it would be that way just on the % comparisons.

Thanks, will keep that in mind… if it can help with comparing items I wasnt completely sure about, then that’s good.

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If you want to k ow how to caculate it…

149% vs 137%:
Understand that the increase to damage, although multiplicative, is additive to the 100% base damage you can do without it. So we add 100% to both for 249% vs 237%. Now we devide, 249/237=1.0506. The answer is now in decimal form, convert it back to % by multiplying by 100. 1.0506 x 100= 105.06. Now we subtract our base 100% to calculate the multiplicative damage difference. 105.06%-100%= 5.06%. So the 149% value is only actually 5.06% more damage than the 137% value. That is just comparing the legendary stat value.

The offhand WD item also grants additional damage range. An ancient legendary can have higher values. To calculate the multiplicative value of that difference you need to grab the white damage range at the bottom of your weapon then add in the offhand damage range plus any other damage range stats you may have from rings/necklace. Add up all of the lower range values, then add up all of upper range values. Once added, add the total lower value to the total upper value and devide by 2. This gives you the average. You will not always hit for the higher number. Do this for both items, then devide the resulting 2 numbers. This will be the decimal value of multiplicative difference.

You do not actually have to do the math for the damage ranges, as swaping between the items will affect your sheet dps. Doing this also accounts for differences in mainstat, crit chance, crit damage, and attack speed. Just swap between the two items and check your sheet elemental dps. Cold I imagine. In the sheet details it will give you a elemental dps number. Compare this number between the two items by division.

If item one gives 149% with cold elemental dps of 4,362,880 and item two gives 137% with Cold elemental dps of 4,577,231 then:

149% item gives 5.06% more damage from legendary stat and 137% item gives 4.91% more damage fron dps. The winner in this case is the 149% item.

Of course you also have to consider damage increase from potential augments. Each augment level is worth 5 mainstat. Look at your mainstat between the two items, calulate what your mainstat will be with each. Divide the larger number by the smaller number.

Say the 149% item in non ancient, and the 137% is ancient. One could easily say the ancient item will surely have 200 more mainstat to start with. If you augment with a 120 gem (120 x5 = 600) you would gain 800 additional mainstat by augmenting and using the ancient. Lets say you have 25k mainstat with the non ancient, you’ll have 25.8k with ancient augmented. 25.8/25= 1.032 or 3.2% increase in damage.

If we then apply that to the before calculated numbers of:
Item 1 with 149% at 4,362,880 and 25k mainstat
Item 2 with 137% at 4,577,231 and 25.8k mainstat.
Item 1 would get 5.06% more damage from legendary stat.
Item 2 would get 4.91% more damage from dps and 3.2% more from mainstat. Convert the % back to decimal to calculate combined damage increase. 1.0491 x 1.032 =1.0827 or 8.27% damage. Compare the 5.06% from item 1 to the 8.27% from item 2. 1.0827/1.0506=1.0305%. So in conclusion, item 2 with 137% stat actually does 3.05% more damage that item 2.

These numbers are obviously not the numbers you have.

Sometimes, a 137% stat can be better that a 147% stat. Just have to do the math.

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Excellent illustration, thank you :slight_smile:

I like doing these numbers in my head while playing (with a little phone calculator support if needed). This gives the means… going to be interesting how these two pieces play out for my numbers. I’ll come back with that.

That’s quite straight forward and covers off detail I’d wondered about. The difference over my approximated approach to this type of comparisons is material.

Yeah I was looking at the sheet damage by swapping items, but it’s helpful to see the detail behind it. I hadn’t noticed the elemental sheet damage in the detail behind the elemental %. That sorts out the elemental question nicely.

This is good. While comparing items I hadn’t considered how direct and straight forward it is to assess the mainstat impact of the available aug on dps, but I shouldn’t be surprised being aware the info that the interface shows when looking at mainstat.

In the sample math are we double counting the +200 from the ancient if we’d swapped to calculate the sheet damage impact? i.e. it’s in the 4.91% ? Item 2 would still be 2.2% better dps if I’ve refactored for that properly.

It was handy to have a 137% ancient, being not too far off the 149% legendary to run through the detail.

It’s seems less worthwhile running the numbers for larger gaps in legendary multipliers like 110% and 120%, so I can just salvage these where the comparison just comes down to dps.

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So running my numbers the 137% item gives 9.35%, so it’s still better on dps alone.

If I wish to maintain Cool Down (which 137% doesnt include), I’ll have to forgo enchanting 15% spirit barrage in.

The question then is, if this is the right way to factor that loss in: 43% SB goes down to 28% SB, so 128/143 = 0.89 multiplier… so 1.0935 x 0.89 = 0.97, losing 3% instead of gaining 9.35%.

Then there is 855 Vit it picks up for losing the preferred affix, so that can shift some Paragon Vit to Int for 17.02% in place of 9.35% … x 0.89 = 1.0415, back 4.15% on the improvement side.

There is a primal in the stash to consider if willing to drop SB for CD. On the same method it’s

  • 1.096 sheet dps x 1.052 potential aug x 0.89 SB loss = 1.026
    vs
  • 250/249 = 1.004
    for 1.026/1.004 = 1.0219 for 2.19% improvement in the primal if maintaining Cool Down.

The primal also has 8% Resource Cost Reduction which isn’t wasted when using Crimson, so I could dump some Vit (249 w/ 76% life for 43.9K) to reduce Maximum Life by 8% (43.9K off 549K) and replace with 249 Int and tip the dps scale up to 6.10% if the enchant SB assumption is right.

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The previous application of the math was hypothetical, but yes the increase in mainstat on the item would be accounted for in the dps. You would not also include it in calculating further damage increase from augments.

If you are running WD, are you not using the voo’s juicer? It has upto 60% SB damage on it as a blue stat. You can achieve upto 105% SB damage, making the SB roll on the offhand less significant.

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Makes sense re the stat/dps, thanks.

I’ve been using The Barber / In-geom. They seem to help with staying on the move and ticking the objectives over. Just messing around to see how fast bounties can be done with mundunugu for WD at the moment. I tend to go to it when I fill up pools on both PoJ & Wiz.

Maybe some dps could be dropped from rings for cooldown and Voos might fit in place of In-geom. Currently 60% cooldown with weapon missing 5% and gloves missing 3%. Cooldown additions seem to add up with diminishing returns in some way though. Haven’t looked into that yet.

With the second controller on support being perpetually behind on Paragon, it burns through pools faster. Getting some bounties done at the same time as topping pools up doesn’t go astray.

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CDR does have diminishing returns. How it works is the cooldown roll you gain only reduces the remaining amount you don’t have by the said %.

Say you have 10% from paragon, 12.5% in helm, and 10% on weapon. First 10% gives you the full 10% because you started at 0. Now you have 90% remaining. The 10% on weapon will give you 10% of the remaining 90% or 9%. Now you have 19% toral with 81% remaining. The 12.5% from helm will give you 12.5% of the remaining 81% or 11.125%. Total is now at 30.125%. The game rounds to 2 decimals though.

The quicker way to calculate it is to multiply the differences then subttact that from 1. 10% is .9, 12.5% is .875. With the same three cdr rolls you get .9 x .9 x .875=.70875. 1-.70875= .30125 or 30.125%.

With captain crimsons there is a second round of diminishing returns as the CDR is additive to itself. If you already have say 50% CDR, gaining another 10% on weapon only brings you to 55% CDR. The damage increase is then 155/150=1.0333 or 3.33%.

Resource cost reduction calculations are the same as cdr; Hiwever, RCR holds its full value as damage mitigation from captain crimsons. If you have 50% RCR and pick up 10% RCR on weapon, you go to 55% RCR, but you get 10% damage mitigation from captain crimsons.

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I imagined it was like this. Good to confirm.

I wouldn’t have guessed that, but its good to know and will need to take it into account if dropping dps on rings for more cooldown to see if Voos will fit. Nice to confirm RCR dr just keeps adding too.

Do you think all the SB multipliers from enchantable affixes, Gazing Demise and Voos all get added together into one SB multiplier or are each separate mutlipliers?

So to compare 45% vs 30% on enchantable affixes with GD/Voos maxed would be either

  • (45+150+60 + 100) / (30+150+60 + 100) = 355/340 = 4.41%
    or
  • 145/130 * 250/250 * 160/160 = 11.54%
    ?
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All blue stat SB % are additive to each other, the legendary affix on the offhand is a seperate multiplier.

So 15% from three sources and 60% from voos comes to 15+15+15+60=105% . The 150% from offhand multiplies against that as follows:
105%+100%= 205% or 2.05.
150%+100%= 250% or 2.5.
2.05 x 2.5 =5.125 or 512.5%

The value of one of the 15% rolls would be 205/190=1.07895 pr 7.895%

If you go without the voos:
145/130= 1.1154 or 11.54%

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11

Fantastic post…and the reason why D3planner saves you all the hassle and math! :slight_smile:

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D3planner has its…faults. if you can do the math, d3planner takes too much time to use while performing some of the calculations incorrectly.

An example is how D3 planner treats % skill damage as a seperate multiplier than damage increased by skills. If you have two forms of 15% tempest rush damage and you have a taeguk that gives you 70% damage in the stat called damage increased by skills. According to d3 planner you have 1.3 x 1.7 = 2.21 or an increase in damage of 121%. However, even the streamers who do build guides on maxroll (d3planner location), claim that these two categories are additive to each other for .3 + .7= 1 or 100% increase to damage.

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