So if Rend doesn’t do increased damage due to the extra attack speed, why are the clears faster with EF? Is the movement speed / extra obsidian rings enough to shave 2 minutes of a 9 minute GR? Are you taking off squirts when using Doom or something?
For the rat runs, I prefer Ambo/EF with Squirts/St Archew Cubed. It’s way stronger than BK and almost as fast in terms of movement speed.
IAS increases a lot of the utility from the WW skill itself. WW loves IAS that’s why the build used to stack it so much before the rework to Rend.
So the benefit comes from the increased numbers of attacks per second, which means you get more healing from the Blood Funnel rune, you also get more hits that reduces cooldown from Obsidian ring, you also trigger Life per hit more and your fury cost increases, which means your Life per Fury heals more. So for survivability it is great and you get much more movement, and at lower rifts and speed rifts, movement is the main time constraint.
Another part is also that your other skill animations are very short, so the time you spend not whirling is reduced, and thus you actually get more time applying damage rather than stomping.
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Move speed, which is very useful. But bear in mind that as soon as trash takes a little longer to kill, that move speed is no longer beneficial.
Echoing Fury is not the ideal off-hand weapon for pushing with Ambo’s. Doombringer’s 20% Physical damage is much more powerful when you’re playing the build correctly and tackling content that requires you to fish.
But correct me if I’m wrong, but I was playing for a few hours today, and noticed some things.
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The Dust Devils did not apply rend, I couldn’t do any damage sending Dust Devils after monsters.
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Rend applied by Ambo’s seems to be doing damage 3 times. One on application, again half way through or so, and then at the end.
So EF would apply more Rends that deal initial damage, and then the 2 last ones will stay for the last second. The faster attack speed applies a lot of initial Rend damage on targets resulting in a higher average damage than just applying 2 Rends and letting them run.
DDs have to be within 9 yards of your character:
As for “when Rend deals damage”, I wrote a post about this a couple weeks ago:
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Ahh that explains it, thx Rage.
The Rend post is certainly interesting, I will give it some closer thoughts.
So what actually happens is that with Ambo’s + Doom you hit every 24 frames so you’d have 2 full ticks of Rend before the second is applied. Whereas with Ambo’s + EF you hit every 16 frames, meaning you only have 1 tick with only 1 Rend, and 4 frames later you get 2nd layer. Netting a 8 frame higher Rend or perceive as 13.3% increase in damage.
Considering that; a 9 min clear should be a whole minute faster, which fits very well into OPs experience. Even thou things die at exactly the same rate, the player see monsters die much faster and thus moves quicker to the next group.
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Well, the OP is talking about applying Rend via WW, in which case the rates you’re giving are not the rates of Rend application (they’re much faster, whichever weapons you’re using). Also, Ambo-Rend is continuously reapplied long before it runs out, meaning applying it a touch faster in the first instance isn’t really getting you anything.
As for HC Rend, well, unless a bot is playing the game and timing everything out perfectly, you may well apply HC Rend 2x a little faster than with Ambo/Doom, but you’re also likely to go back to WWing that much faster, overwriting your HCs. Also, dropping Doom costs you about 14% damage via elemental%, so even if the 13.3% increase you’re imagining could actually be realized, it would still be a damage loss!
In spite of all that, EF is fine for speeds. It helps you move around faster and cool off your skills quicker. Why are we even still talking about this? The OP already said:
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LOL yeah - really beating the dead horse here!
Because it’s a thing. I’ve heard other report the same thing, and I can see it myself. Adding Attack Speed yields a higher damage output yet it shouldn’t, I just don’t have the time to do tests and analyse them. But something makes it seem like WhirlRend deals more damage with Attack Speed, yet it shouldn’t.
It’s not the utility part, it’s how fast monsters lose life that is the issue here, and the fact that Guardians seems to go down faster. And this is not exclusive to EF, but a general thing with IAS rolls on gear in general. All math, formulas and so says it shouldn’t, but something definately happens.
And those 2-3 additional Stricken stacks shouldn’t make up for the time difference.
I don’t like to dismiss claims outright, particularly because I don’t have any time to test myself, but Rage has tested the interactions between Rend and attack speed, and his results are available in this thread and in the Zodiac Rend guide. Whether you’re hitting faster with WW or not, you’re limited by Lamentation’s 2-stack cap, and you can’t control the frame on which you apply Rend. Even if you could, it wouldn’t matter because, again, 2 stacks are all you can apply, and when one detonates, it’s immediately overwritten via Ambo’s or a hard-cast.
If you maintain that IAS increases the build’s damage potential, you or someone else will need to provide solid evidence with video. I’m not saying that to be snarky, but to insure that we take the claim seriously and refrain from spreading misinformation.
WW and DD’s already apply Stricken crazy fast, but remember that the gem has an ICD, so there’s only so much value in attack speed when it comes to applying stacks. Besides, this build doesn’t really struggle against the RG–not like it used to, anyway.
Not damage potential, but damage curve. But it is most likely what I stated previously, you get ½ a tick more on the 2nd Rend stack faster, leading to a higher initial damage, which means you shift target faster.
That should save you around ½ a second per grouping, which quickly becomes a minute
I’m intrigued. I have a Primal Echo that I’ve been wanting to sport. I’ll make a video so other can analyze it. There might be a hidden gem here.
Just a heads-up: That may not work. If you record the video, you would need to break it down frame by frame to analyze what’s going on, and if you’re not going to do that, others likely won’t be able to without the unedited video file. You’ll also have to set up control conditions to minimize the variables at play.
If you already know all this, my bad, ignore me. Only chiming in to save you frustration in case you didn’t know some of this.
That’s good info and frankly, I’m not a tester. I wouldn’t know where to begin to tackle this. The extent of what I’m planning to do is provide footage of how it performs in similar condition vs other popular wep choices and see if there is something obviously notable or not.
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In NS, I didn’t notice anything spectacular and it’s certainly not for pushing as far as I can tell.
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Problem solved after 2 days of continues testing!
things are sooooo simple and obvious that everybody have missed it, hehe.
Bellow is my D3planner with Ambo/Doombringer for GR pushing.
The rend damage formula is pretty much obvious. Everybody seem to miss/ignore completely the WW damage. You all say “its neglectable damage”. It isnt.
Bellow is my WW damage with Doombringer: Full buffed.
- Cost: 11.93 Fury per second
- Tick Damage: 73,511,752,615
- Tornado Damage: 58,376,980,018
- DPS: 467,749,925,362
- Breakpoints: 19.5 frames / 14.5 frames
So, we speak about 467B dps from WW with 19.5/14.5 breakpoints.
My REND damage is
- Cost: 18 Fury
- DPS: 116,270,084,040,189
- Damage: 58,135,042,020,094
58 trillions. Bassically it is 13.5 times bigger than WW damage…so neglectable :)).
However, if we check the WW damage with Echoing Fury, things change!
Echo WW damage:
- Cost: 14.98 Fury per second
- Tick Damage: 66,416,328,368
- Tornado Damage: 52,742,378,410
- DPS: 622,991,170,623
- Breakpoints: 13 frames / 10 frames
That is an increase of aproximative 50% damage for the WW skill.
Now, calculated the stacks from the Stricken… how fast Doombringer add the stacks? How fast EF add the stacks?
The APS from EF are 2.93 / 2.89… about 2.9 each sword. Which means about 3 attacks per second rounded up X 2 swords = 6 stricken stacks per second.
Doombringer is only 1.95/2 APS, which translates in 2 less attacks per second.
That means 2.4% stricken stack damage per second. 10 seconds fight is 24% damage and its enough for EF to win vs Doombringer (20% elemental).
In a fight of 30 seconds, the EF wins by faaaaaar because of faster adding Stricken damage. With each hit it adds 2.4% damage and 3 hits per second vs 2 hits per second on Doombringer (50% increase for EF).
Now, the stricken affects all kind of attacks, including WW.
If you consider that 667B is neglectable (vs 58 trillion rend), try to consider a 60 seconds fight (GR 135-140) with elites. Lets see:
EF stacks 3 stricken per second >>> 180 stacks X 2.4 damage = 432% daamage added by Stricken alone.
The 667b X 5 times = becomes 3.35 trillion damage per WW.
Now apply Area Damage from WW, lets say 120% roughly >>> and WW becomes 3.35T + 7.5T AD = 10T damage.
That is NOT neglectable.
Finally, the above mention is WITHOUT the ring Skull Grasp (400% to WW) that everybody miss to mention.
Adding the Skull Grasp instead of COE, guess what? WW damage becomes:
- Cost: 14.98 Fury per second
- Tick Damage: 2,052,784,717,855
- Tornado Damage: 1,630,152,570,061
- DPS: 19,255,306,425,853
- Breakpoints: 13 frames / 10 frames
nearly 20T damage on WW!!! And it applies AD of 120 very Fast due to ef
Now, the thing is that COE gives you an increase from 182T Rend into 273T with Rend (assuming a 60 seconds fight with 180 Stricken stacks X 2.4% damage each).
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Rend Stacks: 2
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Cost: 18 Fury
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DPS: 547,003,141,032,248
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Damage: 273,501,570,516,124
BUT
you can only use that twice in the window of Physical Elem rotation of 4 seconds.
VS
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REND Stacks without COE: 2
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Cost: 18 Fury
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DPS: 182,334,380,344,083
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Damage: 91,167,190,172,041
Basically you lose half of the damage most of the time. You only deal maximum output of 273T Rend damage TWICE every 15 seconds >>> becomes 4 times in 60 seconds.
AND
Sometime you miss the 4 seconds window fo Physical during the fight… because thats life.
Finally:
Skull Grasp beats COE because it increases the WW damage to 20T which applies AD of 100-120% which makes it 40T and affects the elites!
This is HOW the WW becomes 50% of the damage of Rend. But it works only with EF because it needs very high IAS to fasten the Stricken stacks.
WW does 20T + AD of another 20-25T and Rend aplies 91T.
Total damage EVERY second = ~140T, every second.
VS 91T damage from Rend during during 50 seconds of fights… the rest of 10 seconds will assume for 273T COE damage (best case scenario).
Conclusion:
8400T damage with skull grasp/ww for 60 seconds.
6800T damage from Rend + COE for 60 seconds.
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Except that Stricken has an ICD… sorry you did all that work.
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hahaha :)))
sux. whats the cd?