Which other builds has affected? Example WW doesnt use that…
Not all heroes wear capes. 
Let’s wait how the 5k paragon players will perform and hope that the shield bug T4 DR not applied is fixed for live. If they plan to revisit this set in the future or add another Hydra item it’s probably fine. Gen + AD + Blizzard + Hydra great. I’m allready ready for season 22 with alot of item balance changes.
That’s 5k paragon for the average player. I don’t see the average player topping leaderboards, or fishing hundreds of keys, so having the top LB clears higher than 130 at a lower than 5k paragon (say, as low as 2kp) makes more sense for a balanced build, given this metric.
Given that on average, a player clears 130 at 5kp with less keys, I might not expect GR140 clears from an expert player on the same build, but that player in season at 5kp would very likely clear GR135, maybe even higher with extreme fishing.
I think the large hue and cry from (myself included) is because we fear that the changes proposed will result in LoD Hydra and TV being placed below this level of clear potential in solo push.
On top of that, the difference in multiplier between TV and LoD is not enough. TV won’t stand a chance against mammoth Hydra at only 5.06 GRs difference, even when you factor in non-seasonal for both builds.
Note: edited the above GR value to reflect correct difference. 1.65 GRs is the delta increase from the +300% per head changes, I placed the wrong value initially/
Granted, I’ve quite enjoyed LoD Hydra with the S20 archives bonus. I want both builds well balanced, and I realize that can be hard to achieve, but the multiplier difference is an obvious one that needs adjusting.
I would think upping Serpent Sparker back up to 500-600%, and upping the 6 piece multiplier on TV to 1650% /head is an obvious solution. I think that cements both LoN and TV viability now and going forward? I don’t think LoN Hydra needed to be nerfed so much as a matter of TV needing to be equally competitive.
Bad, bad changes all around. Really disappointing effort by Blizzard.
The GR 142 clear is relevant but it is not the only thing. Personally, I think they reduced the power of hydra builds too much. I have even stated as much.
That is not the primary metric that I use to think about balance. The top clears give a sense about how high a particular build can be pushed by very skilled players who have high paragon with excellent gear and super high legendary gem levels.
I use multiple metrics:
- A cross-section of the leaderboard
- GR efficiency of each class
- Paragon levels of each class at specific GRs (e.g. Gr 120 & 125)
To give you a sense of things that I think about, check this thread.
You will notice that top clears are mentioned very little.
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You absolutely, 100% did not. I believe you said they were too overpowered, but this was admittedly before the final notes were released. I remember, because I took issue with that statement.
You are correct. I thought Blizzard might be concerned but my thought was a “smidgen” of a nerf where smidgen is 1-2 GRs, not what they did.
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At the time, Wizards were lower than WDs, Barbs and Crusaders, so I expected SS to go back up to 600% and for TV to be buffed. While WDs were toned down slightly, (12%?), the extent of this Hydra nerf is almost cataclysmic. I’m not sure either LoN or the TV set is playable now in Solo, Group or Speed metas. Necros and WDs are far superior trash clearers, and RGKs are Crusaders in Season 20 as of now. 2x Hydra may strike middle ground as both, maybe?
Mammoth is somewhere in the range of 2.3-2.8 times as much dps as the other runes.
- 5.31 GRs = ~2.3x multiplier
- 6.56 GRs = ~2.8x multiplier
The difference between TV and LoD (non-seasonal) would have to be placed somewhere in the range of 6.5-7 GRs, favoring Typhon’s. Currently this is only ~6.07 GRs at 1300% per head.
Regardless of the multiplier on SS, Magistrate, that would mean Typhon’s 6pc would have to be adjusted to:
- 1350% per head to match 5.31GRs difference (favors only the best of non-mammoth runes to be used with TV), not enough IMO.
- 1400% per head to match 6.56 GRs difference (favors multiple non-mammoth runes)
- 1500% per head to match 6.98 GRs difference (favors multiple non-mammoth runes)
Change from PTR start with 1400% per head TV:
| 5.5x | 4x | |
|---|---|---|
| LoD | -3.07 GRs | -7.12 GRs |
| Typhon’s | -0.94 GRs | -5.00 GRs |
No real comments as to whether this is good enough balance wise as yet for Typhon’s, since we haven’t had the chance to test TV in push without bugs.
EDIT (3/7/2020): After testing Typhon’s, realized I had forgotten about the 3rd gem in my calcs. Updated math from previous post and updating recommendation here to 1400% to 1500%.
Disclaimer: the above is a general estimate. Values above don’t account for variances in builds (such as using / not using Arcane Dynamo, attunement, spellsteal, etc.).
Despite these, I think the above paints a clear picture of how much the 6pc bonus would actually need to be competitive with LoD Mammoth.
We’re talking 1400% to 1500% per head, not 1300% per head.
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Up’ing TV from 1300% to 1600% is only 1.65 GR increase? Up’ing Magistrate from 300% back to 450% would be another ~2 GRs for a grand total of 3.65 GR increase? Just make sure my extrapolated numbers are correct.
No, it’s ~6.07 GRs difference right now between LoD and TV at 4x multipliers, 1300% per head.
That was a mistake on my part, the 1.65 GR value is the change delta… how much improvement the set received over the course of the PTR relative to LoD, not the difference itself. I edited my post above to reflect that.
Based on this though, we’d still need at least 1400% to support at least one non mammoth rune, and 1500% to enable almost all non mammoth runes be competitive with the set.
EDIT:
1650% per head would be ~6.56 GRs difference between LoD and TV based on multipliers alone (mammoth would make up about that much).
EDIT (3/7/2020) after revising for TV having 3rd gem (forgot to include), this recommendation has been lowered to 1400% to 1500%. Updated value above for GR difference as well.
Perhaps somewhere a tad lower than that would still keep mammoth competitive, but allow multiple runes for TV to be usable / shine.
How about 1550% per head? That’s just over 6 GRs difference in favor of TV (~6.18 GRs). With a significantly beefier change delta of 2.76 GRs. 
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Sounds reasonable; but would LoN/TV be viable for a group-push build at that, or would Serpent Sparker need to be buffed as well to increase both to viability in at least one group meta?
Balance for SS, Magistrate multiplier values looks low, but we won’t know for certain until patch live. But yes, a TV or LoD group build would be less likely at these lower multiplier SS, Magistrate values, even if the TV 6pc does get increased to 1550% or thereabout.
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That’s what I thought. I think SS being 450-500% and Magistrate being 250-300% is a decent split, whereas the weapon has the biggest multiplier but the helm isn’t insignificant.
I would keep SS, Magistrate the the same multiplier if they are both going to multiply hydra damage.
I just really don’t like the fact that Magistrate has a multiplier at all. If I had say, I’d just shift all of the multiplier from Magistrate to the Serpent’s Sparker.
I don’t think anyone would use Magistrate at that point, and it would go back to a junk item. If it had a sheer-utility thing, like “Hydra now casts Frost Nova (and benefited from your equipped rune)” that would be a reasonable item.
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Exactly. Make the CC effect on The Magistrate more appealing of an option, rather than just slap a multiplier on it, making it a required item for the build.
It could inherit the 4 runes (not mists), Freeze duration increased, or freeze more often, or proc extra freezes when the hero takes damage, similar to Halo of Arlyse. There are a lot of possibilities that are seemingly easy to make this item more appealing and interactive.
Then players can decide for themselves whether they want to include this now amazing crowd control + extra rune dps increase item in their build.
Probably be better to make the Magistrate divorced from Hydra at that point, and just have it effect Frost nova. Say Frost Nova gets the “Bone Chill” and “Deep Freeze” runes.
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I agree, you could separate it out, but keep Hydra casts as well though.
‘Frost nova gains these extra runes and is also cast at the location of your hydras.’ …esque