Sorry to talk about this topic, but I am wondering as I’ve heard people say this.
But if ploot is introduced and “monster drops aren’t increased” then what’s the point in having it?
It’s still going to be a lottery over whether or not you’ll get gear. But you won’t have any control over it.
And how do you imagine it being implemented too? There’s a whole host of problems here that will make people game it or just get in the way of legitimate play.
Say there’s a delay on pickup, for example. Are we going to have to stand around for 10 seconds to pickup something that nobody else wants?
We are not asking for increased drop rates.
Ploot is not about efficiency.
It is about a cooperative enjoyable mode to find likeminded players.
D2 is already a lottery whether or not you’ll get gear. As a matter of fact you can be almost certain that you will not get gear in 8ppl games, because these games are not made to farm gear, they are made to get exp.
You do not have control over it in FFA as well.
In FFA 8 players have control over it. Each of the 1/8 of the control.
So you end up with controlling 1/8 of the loot.
You’ll figure out the rest.
In my mind it should be a setting on game creation (either continous scale from 0-10 seconds or some choices like 0.1, 1, 2, 4, 6, 10). You can filter games by the mode and settings your prefer:
There are people that have disabilities, slow internet connections, older computers, etc. They don’t stand a chance playing the clicking game.
I will probably never use auto allocated looting because I don’t play multiplayer games for that reason. In multiplayer games, I’m either getting leveled or I’m helping level others. Ploot isn’t necessarily a good system for that since most people would have to wait for an allocation timer to expire before picking something up, which would slow the progress.
That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t have the option because some people will need it to compete in multiplayer games.
Blockquote We are not asking for increased drop rates.
Ploot is not about efficiency.
It is about a cooperative enjoyable mode to find likeminded players.
I think you read me wrong because I noted advocates aren’t asking for increased drop rates. And it doesn’t increase efficiency. Public games just aren’t efficient in the slightest if you’re hugging groups.
Blockquote D2 is already a lottery whether or not you’ll get gear. As a matter of fact you can be almost certain that you will not get gear in 8ppl games, because these games are not made to farm gear, they are made to get exp.
I know it’s a lottery, that’s what I said. So ploot isn’t going to change that. So what’s the point? As you noted in the previous quote, you want it to be more efficient. But if it’s about getting exp then how does it change that? The best way to get gear in 8man public games is by not hugging the group, so ploot is pointless. It would just make you stand around waiting for loot you cannot pickup (or not see entirely).
Blockquote You do not have control over it in FFA as well.
In FFA 8 players have control over it. Each of the 1/8 of the control.
So you end up with controlling 1/8 of the loot.
You’ll figure out the rest.
That’s not how it works. Skill comes in to play, or like I said earlier: not hugging the group. The ploot would only be relevant for things like bosses, but then you’re just gonna encourage people to stack MF and do nothing except wait for a possible dice roll in their favour.
Blockquote In my mind it should be a setting on game creation (either continous scale from 0-10 seconds or some choices like 0.1, 1, 2, 4, 6, 10). You can filter games by the mode and settings your prefer:
cows FFA, hell, SC, Ladder
baal ploot - 2 seconds, nightmare, HC, NL
This kind of stuff could work on console but not PC. It’s going to split the community and also it just introduces a ton of pain. Like I said, who wants to sit around waiting for loot nobody wants. It’s going to add-up to a ton of extra time just doing nothing.
You know, it’s fair if you want this but there needs to be a way for it to work properly which I am unconvinced there is.
I clearly said that ploot is not about efficiency.
I clearly said, it is about cooperation and enjoyment.
Read more carefully.
Maybe pointless to you. But that doesnt make it pointless to others.
Others being 40-60% of the playerbase.
Or lag or impairment or class choice or age. There are manythings apart from “skill” that are coming in play here.
And eventually it will end up in 1/8 for most players anyway. Simple statistics. Look up bell curve.
Also playing further away from the group gives you more loot in ploot as well. Suggesting that it only works in FFA is simply false.
Why? Where did we say anything about changing MF?
Nope. The community is already split.
Many solo gamers that could now play with other people in an enjoyable match.
First of all: it doesnt.
And second of all: even if it did, why not let people do it then?
Obviously it would not be efficient. So what is your fear?
PoE works fine afaik.
Until someone points out a clear flaw, i dont see why it wouldnt work properly.
Having it as an option will split the community. I think if it is implemented it should be all or nothing for that reason. But like I mentioned, it doesn’t seem workable.
I can sympathise with disabilities. But not the other points you mentioned. However, what would the ploot do? It’s not going to get people more gear. It just adds a time waste into the game. Most of your gear comes from either solo runs, private games or tagging into public games and soloing content or dropping back from the group and killing stuff nearby.
Pop Quiz: If it takes a noob char 10 minutes on average to run Baal to get a guaranteed 3-6 drops, and it takes the same char in a public ploot game on average 3 minutes to run Baal to get a guaranteed 0-1 drops, which would you rather run?
this is a lie… you 100% have control over it… you get roughly 80% of the loot from your own kills, because you are closest to it and looking directly at it when it drops
if u sit in the back doing nothing 80% of your kills is zero kills so that just leaves u with the 20% of loot u manage to grab out from under others
but if u kill 40% of the monster in the game, you get 80% of that 40% plus the 20% u mange to grab out from onder others as well, so u get WAY more loot that u ever would with a “personal loot” system.
“personal loot” takes look away from people who contribute and gives it to players who don’t.… thats why we’re against it… because we’re the ones who contribute…
if u sit in the back on Fiddling your THUMBS just leeching exp, then no, you DON’T deserve loot.
if u WANT loot then GET IN HERE AND HELP.
This is what FFA loot promotes, contributing to the party
Pretty sure no “noob” runs baal in 10 minutes on average.
3 minutes are also quite steep for a run of “noobs”.
The main problem about baal are the immunities of minions. So that would be the “noobs” reason for having more allies (apart from the obvious perks for playing with people). Easier way to deal with the waves. More reliable way to finish. Not necessarily quicker. Just a bit more relaxed and therefore with less reward.
So the choice would be between 10 minutes
SOLO - PLOOT (2-3 runs)
3-6 items - 2-3* 0-1 = 0-3
If 8 ppl have 100% control each. How much control do they all have?
How do you get loot of enemies that you are still busy killing?
By definition it is easier for someone who does not play the game actively to steal loot from you, when you are playing the game at the same time of trying to steal loot for you.
If i sit back and do nothing, i get nothing in ploot as well.
You have to decide whether people are actively looting or not. If they are actively looting in FFA, they will definitely have an easier time getting loot than you who is killing mobs.
Blockquote Maybe pointless to you. But that doesnt make it pointless to others.
Others being 40-60% of the playerbase.
There’s no way you can put a figure on that. Certainly, in all the 15+ years I’ve played D2 I’ve never heard ploot mentioned until D2R was announced.
And it’s pointless because it doesn’t do anything other than make who gets gear an RNG lottery instead of having some control over it. As well as the fact it won’t increase how much gear you get unless all you do is hug groups of strangers in public games and are really bad at picking up items.
Blockquote Or lag or impairment or class choice or age. There are manythings apart from “skill” that are coming in play here.
And eventually it will end up in 1/8 for most players anyway. Simple statistics. Look up bell curve.
You can’t ask for the game to be changed because of choices you made, your rubbish computer or getting older or inability. It’s like saying Starcraft should be dumbed down because you can’t compete online with people who can click faster.
A bell curve represents a random distribution. Loot pickup is obviously not randomly distributed: you even mention factors that show this. Ploot would make it a bell curve which totally ruins many aspects of the game.
Blockquote Also playing further away from the group gives you more loot in ploot as well. Suggesting that it only works in FFA is simply false.
This just makes no sense. What’s the point in ploot then? One of the posts you linked had an area of effect mentioned: this would make you hug the group instead of go off alone.
Blockquote Why? Where did we say anything about changing MF?
You need to actually play D2 to understand why that is the case.
Blockquote Nope. The community is already split.
Many solo gamers that could now play with other people in an enjoyable match.
I mean physically. People who simply don’t play one or the other.
Blockquote First of all: it doesnt.
And second of all: even if it did, why not let people do it then?
Obviously it would not be efficient. So what is your fear?
How does it not add time? You have to sit around waiting for items on the floor. In the thousands of runs you’ll do on D2R that time will really add up and it’ll get boring fast. People doing solo runs are freaking out about 1 second time sinks already.
Blockquote PoE works fine afaik.
Until someone points out a clear flaw, i dont see why it wouldnt work properly.
POE is a new game that was built with that in mind and it has always been that way. D2 isn’t. It’s like WoW, they change this stuff on WoW and more and more changes come in and then nobody plays it anymore because it sucks.
Why would i play ploot if i killed 40% of the monsters in a game?
Clearly i would go into a FFA game if i was that kind of player.
Also, why would i play with people who are just leeching? Why would i not go into another game?
You are complaining about the fist that is punching you without realizing you are hitting yourself.
There is no “taking away” in ploot, because the mutual contract is to trade 7/8 for 1/8.
Then FFA is the mode for the ones who contribute. Let Ploot be for those who are either fine with the rules or who are on the same level as each other.
Exactly. In ploot everyone is playing as good as they can. And that is enough.
Not really. As you say, FFA promotes playing in your own corner of the map, trying to avoid your team.
I think the strongest point is “fairness” which is also the reason why i don’t like Ploot as much as Free for all. The best example is Life in general isn’t fair and we all find a way to handle it in some shape or form.
I don’t think every game needs to be fair and i am personally fine with leaving many games empty handed. Just like i left many raids in WoW empty handed, many greater rifts in D3 and there are probably more examples.
On the other hand there are many players in all kinds of games out there that share items, help you out with loot or advice. Players of any kind found their ways to achieve their goals in the game with only FFA in place. A lot of players beat the game and do their farming on Hell difficulty and get upgrades for their character every day.
My reasons for not liking Ploot however are no arguments to not have it in the game.
I’m going to give up the other stuff because we won’t agree. And that’s cool. I like that you give me your viewpoint.
But I will say you really need to do a refresher course on statistics. The bell curve gaffe is unforgivable. I hope you’re not making decisions for anybody using that level of knowledge. No offence, but it’s dangerous to make such glaring errors.
It allows one to loot without feeling selfish. Certain rarity of loot could be assigned to a random person. It would still be tradeable, but there wouldn’t be a fight over who gets it.
I wouldn’t be against it if somebody could give a convincing argument for what the point would be and why it would work without effecting the game negatively.
All i can tell you is that the intention is to not break the game and to make loot allocation more fair. As i already said “I think the strongest point is “fairness””.
Please fix your quotes.
The way it works here is that you mark the text, you wanna quote, then hit reply. (you can still multiquote as long as you dont hit post yet)
The way you are currently doing it looks not so nice and doesnt show who wrote what you are quoting.
There have been 4 different polls with 4k, 4k, 4k and 9k participation.
All of them had an overwhelming result in favor of ploot/changes.
Trust me, it is an illusion. If you think of it bigger picture, there is no way you get significantly more than 1/8. And even if you do, you can still play that way.
To me, it is certainly a feeling playing FFA and i will still play my fair share of it. But i dont want to always play that mode and i know that there are some who will have their enjoyment of the game greatly increased, because currently they have no accessibility option.
But that is good! We dont want it to increase how much gear you get. We want it to reduce the feeling of having to always spamclick everything all the time.
We want to enjoy the gameplay part. We dont enjoy the loot-clicking part.
Starcraft has multiple gamespeeds.
Starcraft has cooperative matches vs AI.
Starcraft 2 has coop commanders and Archon mode.
Starcraft has matchmaking.
Starcraft has tons of custom games that bloomed dozends of new genres.
I dont think you got the comparison you hoped for here.
In many cases it is. Standing on a clump around Baal is pretty much random chance who gets the item.
Firing a volley into a horde of cows is pretty much random whether the cow close to you or close to the necro drops an item.
If you think that you can decide everything in the game with skill, then sure - it is not random. But you cant, and you dont. It is just a very easy game that makes you think that all you do is very skillful.
That is an illusion. In the end you end up with almost exactly the same loot as someone else with the same playtime and same mf and same killspeed as you.
Where did i mention anything about an area of effect? I dont think that was me.
Unless you mean me reacting to someone suggesting it and saying that i dont know whether it is a good idea.
I need to play D2 to understand “why we say anything about changing MF”? We didnt say anything about changing MF. And i played D2 and i still dont understand why we would have said it. Cause we didnt.
We are not connected physically for a long time already.
Borders.
Internet.
Covid.
If you mean inside of a game. You might claim there is less interaction. But that is speculation. I say there is more. Because i know there is more. Because i already played games with ploot.
But we both cannot know yet. We have to try it out.
Let’s give it a season to test it. Then we can see.
Because most of the time you can still kill something around.
Or you simply decide to leave the item.
Your inventory is very limited. You will not pick up many items to begin with.
Also, It is not about time and efficiency. It is about enjoyment.
And lastly, you can always reduce the timeout even further. Set it to 0.5 seconds. Then you wont have to wait too long.
PoE has a very comparable drop system to d2.
There is nothing that makes it not comparable to d2 in that regard.
Pretty sure WoW had quite a good run before “nobody plays it anymore because it sucks”.
