Are you positive? If I remember correctly, Rage said that AD proc were not applied instantly upon HC, but were distributed over ticks. If you’re right, then yes, it doesn’t matter, but if you’re wrong, then it greatly matters.
I’m guessing you’ve never tried HCing as your only form of sustain. And this again only matters if AD is distributed per ticks.
Hmm. Are you able to find where he posted that? I’m only on the forums sporadically this week, so if new testing was done, it’s possible I missed it.
Not sure what you mean. Why would hard-casting provide sustain? If you’re talking about healing, we do that via Bloodfunnel or Swords to Ploughs. Tests with Life per Hit have been inconclusive or middling, so those two runes are how you heal.
Or do you mean something else by sustain?
Remember, the build does NOT function via hard-casts only.
If AD is distributed in ticks, then you have to standstill and HC for at least 2 seconds so that Ambo doesn’t cancel your HC procs of AD. Therefore, within those 2 seconds, HC becomes your only source of sustain since you won’t be in use of WW and won’t be able to take advantage of BF or StP.
I’ll look for it or just ask Rage in thread.
I need to worry about attack speed , because I am using Ambo’s + doombringer . If I use CoE + band and zodiac cubed with this setup, I need IAS on one of my items.
I do semi-speeds mostly.
But for now I am using zodiac and band of might with captains, so I got my AS fix.
On a side note, I tested a build with FnR with Ambos +Doom, with Reaver in cube, doing speeds. with that I would need an ias on gloves to have if I want to have the best. It needs ias on one piece of your item, can be any item but it’s best if its in gloves esp for higher paragons. Luckily i saved a quadfecta gloves for it, non ancient tho :).
But I dislike the build even tho it can do speeds at higher GRs for me, Im more about doing what’s fun for me rather than what can achieve the best numbers. I like semi-speeds 
, cause super speed is feeling like regular rifts and bounties, I want some different feeling doing GRs.
About the stacks…
So you are saying when mobs die nearby it can stack 1 more not 2 more? Meaning it stacks total 3 times not 4 times? I’m not sure but I heard someone said when mobs with 2 stack of rend dies, it will apply 2 stacks of rend on nearby enemies, which is total of 4.
If it’s only 3 stacks total…then maybe lacerate with IB’s is better than doombringer for me then? …hmm…
I was thinking whenever an enemy die nearby an elite it(bloodbath) doubles my damage on the elite for one second cause it stacks 4 times.
Oh, I found it. I understand what you’re saying.
Yes, AD is calculated on every tick, but you still only hard-cast twice, then spin to maintain all other relevant buffs and DR before you stop to hard-cast some more. This doesn’t change anything from what is discussed in the OP.
You can’t really “sustain” on hard-cast Rends since they don’t crit to heal you, but that shouldn’t matter if you’ve stacked the proper mitigation.
Regardless of whether it is an Ambo’s Rend, a hard-cast Rend, or a Bloodbath Rend, you cannot acquire more than 2 stacks as per SVR’s testing.
then why do you say bloodbath is good in density?
just because it spreads the one stack rends when mobs die? That doesn’t really seems to make it more powerful when i imagine it? especially in higher clears when mobs die less often?
I was thinking it can stack more than 2 times or something making it very good in density
Use EF instead Doom. AS + MS is better for speeds.
Because it can spread Rends far beyond your immediate range. In GG density, Bloodbath is dropping Rends on foes you haven’t even directly attacked. It’s big time damage, and it insures that the maximum Rend stacks are always applied in density.
Rend:Bloodbath explosions count as a separate Rend instance but are capped at 2 due to Lamentation. This makes Bloodbath by far the best DPS rune (doubling the damage output).
SVR said this, so i guess basically he is saying what I say but in a different way? He says it doubles the damage output, how is bloodbath doubling the damage output?
My guess is because mobs that die with 2 stacks will make nearby mobs have 2 stacks of un-runed rends, which then stack with ur 2 stack of runed rends? could be misunderstanding what he says but I wanna know what he meant when he say bloodbath can double the damage output?
Yes, this is correct. With Lamentation, you can have up to 4 Rends on an enemy: 2 from Ambo / HC, and 2 from Bloodbath.
That’s why Bloodbath is so good.
So wouldn’t we want to allow for the most uninterrupted ticks, therefore not allow Ambo to disrupt these ticks?
Yes, this is correct. With Lamentation, you can have up to 4 Rends on an enemy: 2 from Ambo / HC, and 2 from Bloodbath.
That’s why Bloodbath is so good.
Gladdd to hear that Rage, Cause I am in love with My Ambo’s Setup, doing 50% more damage to elites feels sooo satisfying, the feelign of satisfaction on it is on a different level lol, and I don’t wanna use lacerate if possible lol but if it’s so much more damage then I feel gimped.
Plus killing/kiting enemies nearby an elite feels so good too :), since you know you are making them feel the pain by doubling ur damage for one second :).
Yeah but free says this, so it makes me confused :).
Another question, now we know it can apply up to 4 rends on an enemy, how much enemy will i need to kill near an elite to get 4 stacks? one or two? (assuming i have 2aps)
From what i heard an enemy with 2 rend stacks that die will make nearby enemies gain 2 stacks. If this is true that means i only need to kill one enemy near an elite to get 4 stacks on the elite.
If it’s not true then I would need to kill at least 2. Which one is it? Would be happy to know this :).
DH:
So, you pointed out to me once that if you stand still and HC too many times, you drop Taeguk. You’re obviously right about that, and so my current thinking is that the maximum damage you can get comes from the cycle:
HC Rend - HC Rend - tap WW, repeat
This gives you the most possible damage, because it keeps up all your buffs, while applying lots of AD dealing HC Rends. It’s true that as soon as you apply Ambo-Rend via WW, it erases all your HC Rends, but in this cycle, you’re basically immediately going back to casting HC Rend.
It would be very tough to perform this cycle continuously, since most of your healing comes via WW, so there will definitely be times you just need to hold down WW in order to heal or regenerate Fury. But, the less you can cast WW, beyond that rotation, the more damage you’ll do in density.
I think killing one enemy with 2 Rends on him will apply 2 stacks of Bloodbath to his neighbors, though I’m not 100% certain. Either way, it shouldn’t make much difference to gameplay: you just want to fight in density as much as you can.
Thanks. Yeah it’s hard to know these kinda things 100%, as long as we know it does apply extra stacks to its neighbors then it’s all good. Killing/kiting enemies beside the elite and feels good cause you know you are making him feel the pain as you are doubling ur damage on him, feels so satisfying lol, especially on masochist barbarians like me lol, make the elite feeel the pain, wahhaha .
On top of having furnace to deal 50% more damage to elites, damn satisfying as well 
Right.
What if we switch out Taeguk with Zei’s, Relentless and Superstition in place of Ruthless and Berserker, just to see if we can take advantage all those AD ticks.
If 1 - 2 ticks are wreaking this much damage in between WW’s, then image what the other three ticks can do.
You could try swapping Taeguk for Zei, though that will probably cost you some damage. It depends a bit on the level of your Taeguk of course, and whether you’re using Brawler and/or Berserker Rage, but you’ll lose around 30% damage by dropping Taeguk.
You’ll get some of that back from Zei- you get the 10 yard bonus at zero yards, and the 20 yard bonus at 11 yards, both of which are within Rend’s 12 yard range. Ravage only gets you to 18 yards, so you can’t get to the next step on Zei.
So, if you had a max Zei, you’d get +16% damage on guys 0-10 yards, and +32% on guys at 11-12 yards. And you could HC Rend about 6 times (assuming you’re dual wielding) before needing to use WW to refresh Wastes 4.
Heck, give it a try. I’m expecting you’ll have serious survivability problems with that rotation, but you might have fun giving it a shot.
That is contrary to svrs testing results. Have you tested and confirmed? I won’t be able to log on until tomorrow or Friday at the soonest.
You can’t just sit still in density. You have to spin in order to heal and to keep up the damage reduction from the Wastes set and to keep up your Taeguk stacks. If you try sitting still in density for more than a few seconds you’re going to die.
You can’t maximize the bonus from Zeis and you will want that extra armor as you start to push the build to its limits. You need to understand that as you start to push, the only thing keeping you alive is your ability to constantly spin. Once you hard cast, those AD procs are going to be massive and you are going to detonate huge chunks of density, which will require you to regroup, and probably reposition after just one or two cycles. If you can survive standing still in density and mash hard-casts over and over and over and stuff isn’t dying, then the build isn’t working and you’re trying to tackle content you can’t clear.
I don’t think that it is contrary to Svr’s results. When he refers to Bloodbath as “a separate Rend instance… capped at 2” he means that those Bloodbath Rends are like those cast by a different Barb, and can stack on top of your regular Ambo/HC Rends.
That’s what he meant by saying Bloodbath “doubles the damage”, which otherwise doesn’t make any sense. Also, that’s how Bloodbath has been understood to work for years, since long before WhirlRend became a build.
If this were not the case, Bloodbath would be nearly worthless, and Laceration would be the clearly superior choice.
P.S. Different people, including me, have not always been totally clear when talking about “an instance of Rend”. I’m pretty sure Svr meant something like “a separate source of Rend”, whereas I’ve usually used “instance” to refer to “each individual cast of Rend, whether HC or from Ambo”.