Well there it is. My first upgrade all era. primal crit/crit/cdr BOM. This will allow me to run area/rend on my shoulders for an extra 20% area damage I was hunting. Already have shoulders waiting. Contemplating a push tonight.
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Hi all,
Quick question on hardcast rend during RG fight.
It’s only used to help cooldown on wrath, am I correct?
And, good luck Chris on your push!
Hardcast rend proc area damage. Getting more zodiac procs is just a side effect. Not the main reason you use it. On RGs its really only important to hardcast when there are adds/trash spawns during the fight.
I originally ran 100CHD up until GR127. You are correct that CHD gives slightly more DPS once you factor in Wrath (even without ITF - it’s about 2% more Rend DPS on my character), but at that point I was too squishy (P1500 at the time) so I rerolled to the crit for more sustainable healing in density.
I’ve tried BR:ITF - I can’t handle it. It’s doable for clearing if you’ve got festering/battlefields but then the RG destroys me. On the US seasonal ladder, every top barb is actually running Windshear/Swords to Plough. The only person I’ve seen run ITF for pushing is Wudijo on his 140 clear… that guy is in a league of his own.
I lucked out with the chest… but I would trade 3 of’em for your FOT 
Wow congrats! Perseverance pays off! (unless you’re shopping for an FOT)
10% feels about right… but in reality for less disciplined barbs (ie: almost all of us) it will be higher because we will all do excess stomps for various reasons - before phys cycle, occulus positioning, defensive, etc.
With respect to your last paragraph, the would be true if in theory you were fighting a single target, but who does that outside of the RG fight? Gotta assume constant motion - I can cover a huge chunk of density in 0.5 seconds and lay down a ton of dots in the time that I’m stuck stomping!
I would love to see an experienced high ranking WW Barb like Chris play season FnR and see what they think of it. My hunch is that most will view it as a small upgrade - that 5 second FnR stomp really changes the flow of things and messes with your timings.
Well, sure, but that’s kind of where the +/- gets pretty vague. I mean, if you’re going to factor in movement speed to overall Rend application rate, you should probably also take into account the fact that Wrenching Smash is stunning everything within 24 yards, which is 2.56x the area of CC you get from Trapped’s secondary. So you’re getting some damage back there.
My point is just that these sorts of nuances are really tough to calculate in a comprehensive way.
Also, for the sake of thoroughness, here’s “Seasonal F+R” vs “Non-Seasonal Core”
Season F+R-
100 * 1.5 (Focus) * 1.5 (Restraint) * 1.14 (Doombringer) = 256.5
Non-Season Core-
100 * 1.3 (IB) * 1.25 (Mantle) = 162.5
(And giving Mantle that full 25% is definitely overly generous, since it doesn’t play well with Area Damage. A more realistic figure would probably be something like 12%)
So, 256.5 / 162.5 = 1.578, aka Seasonal does 57.8% more damage, about 3 GRs. (3-4 if you only assume a 12% boost for Mantle).
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I don’t, folks. I’m not really sold on the gap being as small as 3-4 GRs. Mathematically, sure, but that rarely tells the whole picture, and there are some significant differences between clears. In Season, the lowest Barb clear is a 122 at 1200 Paragon, and the non-Season clears around the same level don’t compare. In non-Season, you have a 120 at 1300 Paragon, but most of the 120-122 clears are 2-4k Paragon.
When you look at Seasonal 125s, you got players with 1400-1500 Paragon compared to the non-Seasonal 2.5-3k+ Paragon range. Obviously, this is far froma comprehensive comparison, and no doubt other factors contribute to the big picture, but at the very least the gap appears to be (for most players, anyways) much larger than 3-4 tiers.
I think you’re looking at it backwards - for apples-to-apples you’ve gotta compare similar paragon as opposed to similar GR clears. Paragon-based comparisons eliminate main stat as a variable and leaves you with the gear which is what we are trying to extrapolate the impact of.
I think we’ll have a clearer picture by end of season once all the heavy hitters are done their pushes - we should have a decent set of meaningful data samples in between the 130-138’ish range with similar paragons. Perhaps that gap widens,
As we’ve discussed above there are way too many variables (including non numbers factors) to really narrow it down, but I think based on math that Rage has layed out and the preliminary leaderboard results (based on paragon) it does appear to be 3-4.
It’s an interesting discussion. We’ll see by the end of season… the data doesn’t lie!
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I don’t know that it’s backwards, I just think it pretty much fits right in with the “2-3 GR assumption”.
I mean, at about 3k paragon, I have about 24k Str. At 1500P, I would have 16.5k str.
24000 / 16500 = 1.45, i.e. a 2-3 GR increase. (1.33 is 2 GRs, 1.60 is 3).
Or you can look at it from the perspective of top clears. Unless you think there’s some vast conspiracy in which all good players have agreed to sandbag their play, these also line up pretty well.
Top world clear right now is the 142 in China. With 4833 paragon he had roughly 35k Str. With another 6000 paragon, he’d be at 10833p, and 65000 str, an 85.7% increase in damage, about a +4 GR difference, or a 146 equivalent (-1 GR compared to the Korean player who did 147 with 10530p).
So, here are my predictions for what I think are the maximum conceivable Barb clears this season:
9000+P : 149
8000P: 148
7000P: 147
6000P: 146
5000P: 146
4000P: 145
3000P: 144
2000P: 143
1000P: 141
Knock about 3 GRs off each of those, and you’ll have what I actually expect to see. (And I don’t really expect to see anybody break 7k paragon in season, so the clears for 8k and 9+k seem pretty purely theoretical).
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I will give you guys a perfect example of the math telling one story and actual game play showing different results.
So when they re-released mortiks brace it was widely used by IK hota builds. Me being one of the IK hota pushers at the time I loved mortiks brace. The argument was how can losing 20% fire damage from not using magefist be a 2 GR gain? Well its simple, When you gain 50% DR and a little healing from wrath runes it allows you face tank entire rooms and not worry about deaths. I would fish 100s of keys for a 116 clear and would just keep having to run around trying not to die. Well mortiks came back and I clear 116 on the first attempt in 13:29. I could just sit there and focus on one thing killin packs and never even looked at my health.
This is basically the same argument. If your comparing CC non season which is ruffly worth 60% damage boost vs FnR+doom season your talking about maybe 3 lvls right there. But what your not comparing is the fact that
CC doesn’t use band of might. That is an extra 65% damage reduction over the crimson build. I know that doesn’t directly gain you levels but it sure does make life a lot easier and you can face tank a lot bigger packs at a lot lower paragon.
A better comparison is core non season vs the season build. Do that math and see that it says. guarentee you its a lot more then 3 levels.
I can tell you for a fact that my core push build feels like more damage then my CC push build. Why is that? Because I can face tank everything and not worry about anything as long as my BOM buff is up. Can’t do that with CC. I get one shot all over the place even with full buffs.
Edit:BOM is actually a 45% defense boost over CC with perfect rolls. My bad…
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It’s 3-4 levels. Did the math here.
I hear what you’re saying about added toughness. And that’s part of what makes it a somewhat confusing comparison. Having higher toughness (than CC setup) is going to push the average clear up for the F+R setup, but won’t really change the top clears. Because people (with a lot of paragon) obviously can play the CC setup, and just manage to fish out a soft enough rift to survive.
Even if you start your push by failing 500 keys in a row, it only takes one good rift to get that high clear. That guy who cleared 147 with CC probably died a zillion times in bad rifts before he got the one he needed. If instead he’d been playing the F+R setup and pushing 149, he would have had about the same relative damage, but one of those 500 failed rifts might have given him the win, because he wouldn’t have died repeatedly from arcane beams, or khazra spears, or whatever.
But, the F+R setup still lacks the damage to go more than about 3 GRs higher than CC, at the top end.
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I’m pretty oblivious to what’s happening non-season (considering I just came out of a 5 year retirement), but I thought the top clears in non-season were the CC-based builds?
The comparison needs to look at best build vs best build, regardless of personal preferences.
Yup - everything you said makes sense to me.
I think your estimates for the lower paragon players (ie: <4000) are overly optimistic (no way a P1000 player is clearing 138-141), but the higher end paragon estimates (subtracting 3GRs off your numbers) appear within reach.
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I mean yeah, I agree- for one thing it’s nearly impossible to stay at a level of paragon that low while pushing GRs that high. I was just presenting what seemed to me to be the absolute maximums possible, based on the numbers.
Oh by the way Rage since your a Frenzy guy. NA rank 12 did a 139 with Frenzy. Not sure if you knew?
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Yeah man, I saw that just yesterday! And here on the NA server… at least we’re the best at something, lol!
I’m still thinking that build will cap out at maybe 141. I don’t know if you’ve tried it out much, but it is really crazy how suddenly you run into the “damage wall”. Like maybe a 3 GR span between rifts going from feeling only modestly challenging to feeling impossible.
I kinda wish they made different leaderboards for the different builds. Since we don’t really know the top push done with frenzy as some of those WW guys might have done higher just not as high as there WW.
Yeah, me too. On the old forum I actually started a thread asking for just that thing. It would be really helpful. Never got a response to that, though if memory serves me right, I think Matt C said that he’d like to see something along those lines… I guess we’ll see what the future brings. Fingers crossed!
They could even just keep the same board but allow players to inspect peoples top clear with all builds they have played.