So, it looks taking the extra RCR and CDR rolls on shoulders, gloves, and weapons ends up costing you some damage: if you take AS on both weapons and gloves (vs just on weapons), this gives you about an extra 7-9% damage, let’s call it 8%. You can also take DMG% on both weapons, which gives you 7% (because of damage range on ring), or, if you have less than 28k STR, then taking STR would be better.
So, together with CoE, that’s 1.5 * 1.08 * 1.07 = 1.73x, compared to 1.3 or 1.4 for H90 hybrid, or somewhere between a 25 - 33% stronger “base”.
But, of course we have to account for doubled Bloodshed.
Once you take both Bloodshed and AD into consideration, it looks to me like the H90 hybrid is about 7% stronger in density, while the CoE version deals about 5% more damage to a single target.
So: pretty close!
Yeah, but that’s not part of the Legendary power, so if you’ve got it in the cube you aren’t going to get those procs.
Edit: it looks like running 7% IAS on weapons, without AS on gloves, actually doesn’t do anything at all: If you have no AS in any of those places, you have a 12-15 frame HOTA, which remains the same with the two IAS weapon rolls. So, you can dump those rolls for Dmg%, STR, elite dmg, or LpH.
Im not sure I agree with the math, however. If we agree to take only 1.3-1,4 dps increase from s2 multiplier, AS on gloves does not give an extra ias breakpoint to the classic build. So that would be 1.62 for the classic build.
But then, that does not give a 25% advance on dps, as the marginal gain is actually much less than that (not even 1%)?
Also, I really do not get how you get to dbl bloodshed resulting in only a 10% dps gain over single bloodshed. Honestly, I do not even know how to calculate bloodshed dps ^^, any insight here?
With regards Echoing, yes I was thinking off season, as thats all my gamepay on this build has occurred.
Hmm, are you sure you’re including both WoTB and 5 IB stacks (which will always be up) in that? I’ve been calculating with both 0 and 15 PE stacks, but I’m seeing your new reply and I’ll add in 10 as well.
So, with AS on both weapons and gloves, you have 14 / 12 / 11 F HOTA with 0 / 10 / 15 PE stacks.
With AS just on weapons, you have 15 / 13 / 12.
With none of those AS rolls, you have 15 / 13 / 12.
Going from a 15 F to a 14 F is 7% more damage, going from 12 to 11 is 9% more damage, hence the 8% I came up with.
1.73 / 1.4 = 1.2357, and 1.73 / 1.3 = 1.33, hence the 25-33% figure I came up with.
It’s because a bunch of your damage is also coming from AD, and with a higher damage base, the amount of AD you deal is proportionately increased as well.
So, to determine how much damage you do with Bloodshed, I first figure out what % of your total damage comes from crits. In this case it’s basically 100%, so it’s easy, but for a non-HOTA build I just calculate out the damage on 1000 hits. Like, let’s say you had 54.5% CHC, +463% CHD, and were hitting 1000 times.
545 of your hits would do 5.63x damage, and 455 would do 1x damage.
(545 * 5.63) = 3068
3068 + 455 = 3525
3068 / 3525 = 0.87 , so in this example, 87% of your damage comes from critical hits.
Actually, I just realized I was forgetting to take into consideration the fact that Bloodshed damage is discounted by proc coefficient of the proccing skill, so that will sway the numbers a little more in the favor of CoE.
So then with Bloodshed, the damage dealt would be Total Damage * 0.87 * 0.2 * # of targets hit * skill proc coefficient (for HOTA:Smash it is .667). So if you hit 7 enemies for a total of 1,000,000 damage, Bloodshed would then deal approximately 1,000,000 * 0.87 * 0.2 * 7 * .667 = 812,406 damage.
Here are the numbers I used:
H90 hybrid damage is 1.40
Bloodshed damage with 15 targets is 1.40 * 1.00 * 0.4 * 15 * .667 = 5.6
Bloodshed damage with 1 target is 1.40 * 1.00 * 0.4 * 1 * .667 = 0.373
Area damage with 15 targets is 1.40 * 0.2 * 14 * 1.78 = 6.98
Area damage with 1 target is 0
Total damage w/ 15 targets: 1.4 + 5.6 + 6.98 = 13.98
Total damage w/ 1 target: 1.4 + 0.373 = 1.773
CoE damage is 1.73
Bloodshed damage with 15 targets is 1.73 * 1.00 * 0.2 * 15 * .667 = 3.46
Bloodshed damage with 1 target is 1.73 * 1.00 * 0.2 * 1 * .667 = 0.231
Area damage with 15 targets is 1.73 * 0.2 * 14 * 1.78 = 8.62
Area damage with 1 target is 0
Total damage w/ 15 targets: 1.73 + 3.46 + 8.62 = 13.81
Total damage w/ 1 target: 1.73 + 0.231 = 1.961
So, with the 15 targets, H90 hybrid does 13.98 / 13.81 = 1.012 , or 1.2% more damage.
With 1 target, CoE does 1.961 / 1.773 = 1.106, or 10.6% more damage. Now that I’ve remembered to include the proc coefficient, the numbers are looking a bit worse for H90. It’s still pretty close though.
I would just swap the IAS to either DMG% or STR, depending on how much STR you’ve already got.
I looked at the pros and cons of IB vs Remorseless+Sankis (with EF in cube) in post 88, though here we wouldn’t have Sankis and would be carrying EF. That would obviously have the good/bad of more feared enemies, of course.
You’d run into the stat crunch with EF, since it always rolls DMG% - STR - IAS. I think the best you could do would be DMG% - STR - AD, with Remorseless having AD - RCR - CDR. This costs you 1k STR, but at least you get both AD rolls on there.
With those rolls, your HOTA frame would be between 20.5 and 11.5, depending on PE and EF stacks. You’d have a real problem with single target RGs, where you’d lose about 45% of your max damage from no EF and no PE.
I think IB would be better… it would certainly be more consistent.
Yes except, thats not how it should be calculated i believe.
Say we both do 1k dps in total. CoE would do 1.62 x 1000 = 1620, whereas S2 would do 1.4 x 1000 = 1400, so the the marginal difference is 220/1620= 13%.
Alright, i get your numbers. Now, I must question the 1.4 figure. If we have 20+ cc on gear, and attack 5/sec, one cc gets applied every second , therefore the mobs is permanently cc’ed. I do not know the formula for cc resistance of whites/elites/boss, but im sure you do. How do you get the 1.3-1.4 from?
Edit: And is there a lvl of CC that would guarantee a 100% uptime on s2?
Think of it this way: you do 100 damage. You pick up an item that doubles your damage. Now you do 200 damage. This is an increase of 100% damage. But, if you go back to 100 damage (from 200), this isn’t a loss of 100% damage, it’s a loss of 50% damage.
Likewise, in your example, it would be 220/1400 = 1.1571, i.e. a 15.71% increase, which is the same as 1.62 / 1.4 (which also equals 1.1571).
Also, you are using 1.62 rather than 1.73 here… are you still getting different numbers from me looking at the frame breakpoints in D3 planner?
I’ll answer the last part first: No.
You should go read this post, then come back here.
Ok, you’re back. So, to expand on the info there, let’s just use the middle, “newest stun only” example I give there, and expand on it a little more. First, you need to know that CC immunity also decays at a rate of 5% per second, as long as the enemy doesn’t again become CC’d. And here I’ll use the duration of Stomp (4 seconds)
Second 0: CC immunity 0%, Stun applied, duration 4/4 seconds
Second 1: CCI 10%, Stun applied, duration 3.6/3.6 seconds
Second 2: CCI 20%, Stun applied, duration 3.2/3.2 seconds
Second 3: CCI 30%, Stun applied, duration 2.8 seconds
Second 4: CCI 40%, Stun applied, duration 2.4 seconds
Second 5: CCI 50%, Stun applied, duration 2.0 seconds
Second 6: CCI 60%, Stun applied, duration 1.6 seconds
Second 7: CCI 70%, Stun applied, duration 1.2 seconds
Second 8: CCI 80%, Stun applied, duration 0.8 seconds
Second 9: CCI 90%, Stun applied, duration 0.4 seconds, below 0.65 second threshold, no effect.
Second 10: CCI 85%, Stun applied, duration 0.6 seconds, below 0.65 second threshold, no effect.
Second 11: CCI 80%, Stun applied, duration 0.8 seconds.
Second 12: CCI 90%, Stun applied, duration 0.4 seconds, below 0.65 second threshold, no effect.
Second 13: CCI 85%, Stun applied, duration 0.6 seconds, below 0.65 threshold, no effect.
Second 14: CC 80%, Stun applied, duration 0.8 seconds.
You can see that this last segment just repeats, in seconds 9-11, and 12-14. So from this point forward, the enemy will be stunned for 0.8 out of every 3 seconds, or 0.8 / 3 = .267, or 26.7% of the time. Cold Rush only lasts 2.5 seconds, so with that mobs reach immunity after 8 seconds, and have about 25% CC uptime thereafter.
So, for the first 7-8 seconds of a fight, you’ll have uptime near 100%. But after that, it’ll sink to 25-27%, and stay there. It doesn’t make much difference how fast you attack, or even how long the stun is- the 4 seconds of Stomp is 60% higher than the 2.5 seconds of Cold Rush, but even so, that only leads to a minor increase in CC uptime.
I dont read different numbers in planner, however, the ias is so volatile with PE, that its difficult to fix hard numbers. But with ias on weps and gloves, i suppose CoE would always have a breakpoint advantage. However, isnt there a cap to att/sec to 5?
On the topic of CC, HotA has a small AoE, so in a big fight , one can go from group of mobs to another group of mobs, benefitting from CC, while still damaging the whole pack with ad and Bloodshed. In that case, wouldnt the CC resistance of the earlier mobs diminish to 0, allowing you to always benefit from 100% CC if well maneuvered, and density sufficient?
Your sheet aps is capped at 5, but effects that increase the speed of certain skills (like Bracers of the First Men for HOTA) can exceed this mark. With Frenzy it’s possible to reach a 5 Frame attack, or 12 per second!
You can definitely try to do that, in order to increase your uptime. For that, I definitely think you’d ideally want Charge: Merciless to improve your maneuverability. Like I said, with perfect stun/freeze/fear rolls everywhere, you’d have an overall cc chance around 19%, which if you are hitting 4-5 times / second, will cc quite a few enemies.
Anyway, I guess my final analysis is: this will be a fun variant to play. If it’s better or worse than the CoE setup, it will be better or worse by a hair, not a large amount.
I was hoping this variant would allow IK to edge out LoD HotA, but I guess it wont. Lets Hope IK gets a buff in the coming patches. Its nice to play barb without ORotZ sometimes.
Specifically I have a question about the Fear effect on the EF.
You can see the weapon I used for the clear in my profile linked above.
I have another EF in my stash with near optimum base damage 9 or 10% dmg bonus, 7% AS and 24% AD (rerolled from mainstat INT). Sheet DPS of that EF is around 2.996k.
The big caveat on that EF is that it has around 19.5% chance to fear instead of 10.7% on the currently used EF.
Should I still use the one in the stash or keep using the one equipped now?
Just from a gearing perspective you have some big holes to fill. Remorseless you probably want area instead of damage and the multiplier you should push for 250. Both weapons need higher base rolls. Your gems and augments range from 100-116 so you need to really work on those. Nobody that plays diablo 3 gets 150 gems or augments by playing solo or low GRs. This is only done by playing very high meta groups. Even if you played a wwrend barb just to get slightly higher gems to benefit your HOTA build that would be very helpful. I didn’t like playing zbarb at all when I started but I did it so I could get 150 gems. Now I love it and still play it.
IK HoTA is just so under-powered it doesn’t even compete anymore. WW/Rend, Frenzy, Proslam, and Leapquake are all way better and much more powerful.
As far as the EF choice, it won’t make a lot of difference at the lvl you are doing. Fear is not really a desirable affix, but it’s not a game breaker either.
Do your thing, that’s what counts anyway.
There is just not much help for IK builds currently.
Switch hands with your weapons, highest damage goes in main hand…
Thanks for your Input. I know that my Gems and augments are pretty low, but I don‘t compare myself to top end Players. I play almost exclusively solo and just want to get as far as that may take me.
I just like HotA fully aware that it doesn‘t perform anywhere near ww/rend or h90, which is really a shame.
My ww barb currently does 115 in 6:18 with suboptimal gear choices. I think I might be able to clear 120 to 125 with him, before I really Need to change his gear to get higher.
My goal is to get my PBs as high as possible, but it must be Fun and not become a chore. And if that means that I will hit a wall sooner or later that is ok for me.
While it’d be nice to see IK get buffed to like 6000% from its current 4000%, I was wondering what impact the Follower overhaul would have on this build? It is my understanding that with an Enchantress, it’s possible to hit 12 Frames(5 APS) with Gogok + EF + Enchantress(6% Focused Mind). Amplification gives 10% Fire and if you opt to use Prophetic Harmony as well(via Hand of the Prophet), you gain a modest amount of Cooldown reduction(pushing Cooldown reduction as high as ~40% with Gogok and Diamond in Helm). Granted I don’t know how viable that would be since I typically run with Invulnerability on my Followers so they’re available at all times.
The big gains are going to be as a result of adding FoT and Nems on follower. CDR is not a big deal with this build since the IK set itself cools down your WOTB.
So, take Enchantress, with Amplification.
All in all, the follower updates probably give this build roughly +4 GRs.
엔류 has cleared 139 (in about 14 minutes) with IK HOTA, as of 4/24/21. About 9k paragon.
Noteworthy: used Sankis, rather than Echoing Fury, and also Rage Flip, for gathering mobs (Using RF was first implemented by Rxt in his 128 clear on the EU server from several eras ago).
Interesting choice on Sankis… perhaps mobs are dying too slowly for EF to provide consistent DPS? Or maybe the choice is mainly defensive, making up for defense lost in the swap from War Cry -> Rage Flip.
Anyway, this build can obviously hit 140 at 10k+ paragon! Exciting times!
Been enjoying HOTA lately. May I ask if an Aughild’s setup has been tried for this build? Have been playing around with 2-aughild equipped, mage fist equipped, RoRG and Bracers of First men in cube. I’m not looking hard on the stats yet but after some testing it seems to be good as well vs the CoE setup.