Group Speeds & Vyrs status

So how do the most recent PTR changes affect the meta for group speeds? With the loss of the Lon buff and the addition of squirts necklace and flavor of time buffs, I thought Vyrs might take the lead.

Anyone know?

There are definitely some new variables to consider for 2.6.6.

LoN mages will be losing BoT for Dreams gem, but get a little more mileage out of the Triune buffs, and the supports will be using the new Flavor of Time as well.

Vyr will gain power from some combination of the new items, but I think it is still a bit early to tell how much value can be gained on average, as contenders for those item slots are already very strong.
Likely some combination of Messerschmidt’s Reaver cubed & trading Zodiac for one of the new items (Squirt, FoT > Furnace) will yield the best average clear speed, but I’m not sure anyone gathered enough data from a Vyr speed group on PTR to gauge it very well yet.

Maybe it will be enough to at least close the gap between the two.

I have no interest in rat runs nor do I or will join them. There’s definitely other comps that work just as good if not better people have just gotten used to it being the only option for xp… the first few weeks of season I used a typical meta group of Barb/monk/dh/wiz and did 112s in around 3 minutes. Just the Barb and monk use more movement enhancing abilities compared to pushing. I’ve heard double vyrs+2 other classes can do it just as fast as boring rat runs.

Well, it’s like this. Instead of Furnace, we’ll use OoiD. Instead of CoE, we’ll use Squirt’s. So we lose 50% elite damage, and 200% damage (.25) for 40% ALL damage + 100% multiplier, and take 10% more damage. We’ll also lose the additive damage of Black Hole (absolute Cold) since we have to use Explosive Blast to trigger OoiD. I think it’ll work out to mean considerably faster speed runs. I mean, considerably. Will we manage to match Necros (who DO benefit from CDR and RCR from Triune?) I don’t think so. But it’ll much closer.

But yes, our speed build will be considerably improved. zMonks might be able to work in Executioner too, perhaps. Which is good, because that’s sadly the only use of the item as of now.

1 Like

I mean, should have been doing this right now really.

Nah don’t give that juice up, just drop teleport/Force Armor. Any good zdps will be enough to get you through the rift when in non archon / OoiD wears off
which shouldn’t be any significant amount of time.

But anyway yes new patch is more of a reason to do this, since you can fit in Squirts which is just amazing for Vyrs + shields. But if they nerf it too hard you know could also do RoRG + Crimsons. Cube belt.

Since quite a few people have seen this thread, I’m going to add a quick PSA follow-up here:

  1. There is no substitute for Black Hole: Absolute Zero on the skill bar which will not result in an overall damage loss.
  2. Using Captain Crimson only results in a damage loss due to losing Swami or Fazula. Cratic tried to make it work during PTR, but it ended up being more of a T16 meme.

Squirt’s is a game-changer, we may need EB to keep up shields in order to keep the 100% up from Squirt’s, particularly for 115+. We can, technically, drop Teleport but I find it much less smooth. This is the kinda thing we need to test.

What we know: Squirt’s is 2x as good as CoE, and we need to keep shields up in order not to reset it.

What we know #2: We need to reset Archon, but we also need to stack Chant’s to 20 beforehand, because it’s 90%+ of our DPS to get those 20 Chant’s stacks. Therefore, MSR is of limited use in Speeds, because it’s in a highly competitive slot and we don’t need (in fact, want to very much avoid) auto reset of Archon.

What we know #3: Compass Rose and TP is basically mandatory as well, with another 100% multiplier.

So we have Vyrs (6) Fazula’s (7) TP + CP (9) + Chants set (11), and Ashengarrs (12) so we have 12/13 pieces basically locked. All we can change is one cubed weapon, and one equipped ring.

Our choices will be 1) Furnace, or 2) OoiD in the cubed weapon slot

and our choices for the ring slot is CoE OR Zodiac, and I think Zodiac will win out because it’s such a key part of the speed GR build. In theory, I suppose we could drop Zodiac, pick up MSR, and equip a CoE, but I suspect that’s sub-optimal considering we’re exchanging 40% damage + 80% DR for 50% damage. EDIT: We only get half-uptime on OoID. MSR + CoE might be better.

Might be the go-to build ~https://us.diablo3.com/en/calculator/wizard#SemNQh!fbhi!cYYZcc~

@Venaliter: I feel like I’m getting baited into an argument here simply for stating objective info, but I’ll post one more response and hope it isn’t taken too harshly.

@Venaliter: Did you actually do any testing on the PTR? I tested all the different configurations on the PTR in speeds as well as a solo 130 clear with Squirt and OOID setup (at <2800 paragon) to get a feel for the damage, so I am not simply making assumptions based on others feedback here.
Despite that, I never claimed that MSR was > than all in my response to OP, or made any blanket statements about what “we know” or “is basically mandatory.” I think a little more testing/discussion is needed before making any firm conclusion about the best build & team comp.

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here, or why you are explaining how the Chantodo set works before stating that MSR is of limited use, and then talking about “auto reset of Archon”, which I can only assume means that you are using a macro simply to activate Archon instead of manually pressing the button after reaching 20 stacks, and stating out of personal preference for using said macro that MSR is bad because of this, even for those who play manual?

Yes I know how Squirt’s works, and I took that into account.

Did you personally test this on PTR against all other configurations, including Flavor of Time?

So you are saying that your initial build suggestion is no longer the indisputable most effective option, and see some merit in further testing like I suggested?

1 Like

Who is arguing? I’m saying more testing is needed. you’re saying more testing is needed. We’re in agreement. No one is arguing here. At least, I’m not. This is a discussion forum!

I didn’t bother to do much testing on the PTR, squirt’s was majorly bugged, and that was the only really thing I wanted to test.

I’d be interested in your conclusions from your testing on the PTR.

1 Like

I wasn’t able to get a super large sample size during ptr, but if you are shooting for optimal xp/hr or just quickly leveling augment gems, the setup with Endless Walk + Squirt, and Zodiac worn with Furnace cubed was giving a bit better clear speed than the current setup with CoE, and a setup with Reaver cubed and CoE worn, and trading Gogok for Zei gem yielded some even faster clears in rifts with decent density. I only ran solo and with an xpbarb, and testing each setup for a few rifts between 110-120 to try to get some clearspeed comparisons, but with barb buffs you are basically immortal, so I doubt there will be any issue with shields holding in speeds, even after Squirts increased damage taken component is fixed, the exception being very early season xp grinding, where you may opt to drop CoE for Karini for some needed toughness.

When I tested Flavor of time, I won the lottery and got early 1st floor conduit / power a couple times and it just felt like overkill at lower speeds. It can make farming 120 feel like T16 if you get the good pylons early, but that just doesn’t happen so often, so the pure damage options just gave me better results on average.

3 Likes

I agree with all of this, except for the availability of barbarians. They are mostly doing rat runs, so ignore pain might be more of a luxury, in which case we will have to do OoID. We shall see.

Just for reference, the current 2.6.5 speed setup developed by sVr looks like this: (add a . before the com in the links as no TL3 for me yet)
ptr.d3plannercom/142782158

redditcom/r/Diablo/comments/ba3fy8/d3_ptr_265_vyr_chantodo_wizard_speed_117s/

So picking up the extra damage from Squirts isn’t completely free, as you are likely dropping Strongarms for Blood Bracer to protect your damage buff, and possibly a damage passive for Galvanizing Ward, or if you simply choose to drop Furnace for OOID, you may not have 100% uptime on shields after your buff fades, and you lose the consistent elite damage provided by Furnace, which gives a higher average value in 3-4 min speed clears, as that extra damage to trash is not really needed when mob hp is that low.

Edit: earlier planner link was accidentally pulled from another tab I had open theorycrafting a 2.6.6 setup with FoT; updated link to correct 2.6.5 setup.

1 Like

Depending on the updated DR mechanics of Squirts when the patch goes live, EW may not be mandatory for speeds.

Thanks for the link to SVR’s planner setup. At a farming tier where high number of kills are guaranteed MSR is a powerhouse CDR item, even better than Zodiac during the run. It takes a few cycles to get started and ramp up stacks/kills, but once it got rolling my archon was basically available again instantly every cycle. On PTR we experimented with having one wiz using a standard Zodiac setup and the other using a full dps version dropping Zodiac and going with MSR/Squirts/EW/CoE. One problem without Zodiac is resetting on the RG, it’s dependent on whether you got a lot of kills for MSR just prior to spawning the boss. If not, the resets take forever. That’s why it was good having one wizard keep Zodiac.

FoT can be really good but as mentioned it’s highly variable/dependent on timing/placement of pylons.

The SoJ is an interesting choice I had not considered or tested, makes sense to recover some of the Elite Dmg lost dropping Furnace.

2 Likes

This was my experience also, which led to me conclude that MSR is just more effective for lower tier speeds in which the RG dies in less than 2 archon cycles. I’m not sure if there is a more worthwhile way to compensate, such as bringing Impale DH instead of zNec, running a stricken, etc. Maybe just bringing a little extra insurance for faster RG kills makes MSR worth it even at slightly higher farming tiers.

My apologies, the earlier planner link was accidentally pulled from another tab I had open theorycrafting a 2.6.6 setup with FoT; updated link to the correct 2.6.5 setup.
You’re right about the SoJ being there to recover some elite damage from losing Furnace though.

I also was considering swapping AT: Static Discharge to SB: Barrier Blades in the Reaver builds to gain 8 elite damage on source instead of the 4 apoc, while also gaining some extra shields outside archon, but that is a pretty rare source, and I’m not sure Blades stacks Chantodo quickly enough to be worth it.