No. It’s a very old site, but this gives an indication of how much progress each mob type is worth… http://www.warpath.eu/mp.html
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thanks! this helps a lot.
So the progression will also depend on the mob.
you may clear the same GR faster or slower with the same build and paragon (and pylon) depending on the mobs.
Actually, Silec updated it 1 year ago, after a long absence! I love that site.
The flat numbers are definitely easier than percentages. I guess a question we need to ask is: how much should the maximum move time be?
Obviously, if we were just going to cook up a ridiculous situation, you could have 14 minutes or more of move time: you start an easy rift, run in circles for 14 minutes, then clear the rift in one minute.
But, in a not-dumb, not-made-up scenario, what would the max be? If we based the time on Floors, like dmkt suggested, at 25 seconds/floor, then you’d have 200 seconds move time with an 8 floor clear.
The (relatively) highest clear I can remember that went to a really high number of floors was Darkpatator’s 134 with Charge Barb in Era 11, where he reached the 7th floor briefly, before backtracking. It was the highest Barb clear worldwide at the time.
So, maybe 200 seconds is close to the max… but, if we don’t know the number of floors, I think maybe it’s a bit too much to assign to every clear that gets close to 15:00.
Where should our move time scale top out? 220 seconds? 200? 180? 120?
I guess my gut says somewhere between 120 and 180.
200+ definitely is realistic for a few clears, but I think it’s too high to serve as a reasonable average that we can apply to a majority of clears.
To get scaling that ends with 180 seconds move time at 15:00, you could do 60 seconds for first 5 minutes, then 4 - 8 - 12 - 16 - 20 - 20 - 16 - 12 - 8 - 4 .
S6 Impale (No Stricken)
| GR Level | Clear Time | Pylons | No. of Floors | Notes |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 123 | 5:40 | Po, Sh, Ch | 2 | |
| 124 | 6:44 | Sp | 3 | |
| 125 | 5:18 | Co,Sp | 3 | |
| 126 | 7:29 | Sh,Sp,Co,Ch | 3 | |
| 127 | 7:32 | Ch,Sh,Sp | 5 | |
| 128 | 9:34 | Ch,Sp | 3 | Poor Maps |
| 129 | 10:11 | Po,Sp | 3 | Poor Maps |
| 130 | 12:06 | Ch | 4 | Poor Maps |
| 131 | 11:05 | Ch.Sh | 3 | |
| 132 | 10:38 | Po,Co,Ch,Sp | 2 | Good Maps |
| 133 | 14:24 | Ch,Sh | 4 | Poor Maps |
I really don’t think Move Time should increase as the GR total time rises. I get that the formula is reducing the amount of time 17% per tier time increase, but really Move Time should be fixed, unless the number of floors is specified.
If the user doesn’t disclose the number of floors, there is no basis for assuming it was 3 ,4 ,5 ,6+ floors as a 14 min clear can occur within a single floor.
Well, I definitely disagree with you, though I think part of the issue is that we are perhaps not seeing eye-to-eye on what counts as Move time.
Here’s an example… this is something I wrote to explain the damage of Rend: Bloodbath, but it’s useful here too. Give it a read, and watch the video (Seras’s Rank 3 NA Barb clear, using Rend) at least to the 2:15 mark.
This is a one-floor rift. So does it have low Move time? On the contrary, I would count the entire first 75 seconds of this rift as Move time. After all, during that period he deals essentially zero damage- not enough to kill a single enemy (which you can tell for 100% certain by watching for Rampage stacks). At one, two, three, four tiers higher (or even four tiers lower) he’d also deal basically zero damage during that entire part of the rift. There’s no damage:time scaling, because he’s not really doing any damage, and doesn’t really expect to be doing any damage. It’s Move time- 75 seconds of it within just the first 135 seconds of the rift.
If, on the other hand, he were playing a 125-130, he’d just mow the enemies down without needing to spend any time Spearing and Stomping them into a big heap… there would be a lot more time spent doing non-trivial damage, and a lot less time moving around.
I agree with you that running through 8 floors of rift takes time, but that’s definitely not the only thing that should count as Move time.
Actually, rewatching Seras’s clear makes me question the wisdom of having a cap of Move time at around 20% of total length. I think it’s quite possible you could end up with clears, including the one in this video, where Move time and Regular time are near 1:1.
I think one of the things that is screwing us up is Area Damage. I pointedly avoided talking about this in the OP, because, in a sense, AD doesn’t impact the time.
Let’s say you have a blob of enemies, and you kill them in X seconds. If you jack up those mobs’ health by 17%, and have exactly the same fight, you kill them in 17% more time, no matter how much AD you’ve got, provided that AD is the same in both cases.
So, in the main way this analysis goes about things, AD is essentially immaterial. But, there’s a catch: released from the strictures of “everything stays the same, except the tier”, AD of course alters the time quite a lot.
And, the way it does that is by allowing you to spend time (one might also say, spend damage), in order to increase your future damage. So, rather than doing 100 damage a second for 30 seconds, you do 0 damage a second for 20 seconds, and then 600 damage a second for 10 seconds.
But of course, it’s only worth doing that if it actually saves you time. If the mobs you’re facing only have 500 life, then you just spend 5 seconds killing them with your 100 damage per second, rather than spending a bunch of time grouping them.
So, I suppose what I’m getting at is that when AD and grouping come into play, we suddenly discover significant periods of time where the damage we deal either is zero, or might as well be zero. In those periods, we are just moving our character through the rift, and moving the mobs into a more optimal grouping.
Tldr, I guess, is: grouping time = Move time.
This is also part of why I’ve been gently pushing to not put too much stock in how speed runs show up in the analysis. Below a certain tier, there is the problem of overkill, which really screws up any notion of relating damage to kill time. And even at somewhat higher tiers, there is the problem that we are on one side of the cost:profit ratio for grouping enemies, but some number of tiers higher, when we are “pushing”, we are very much on the other side.
Once we reach a tier where grouping becomes profitable, grouping time (and therefore, move time) increase dramatically. That probably plateaus after a few tiers though, after which you’re already grouping all the mobs, and of course you can’t spend time grouping more than all of them. So maybe the parabola I was using actually needs to be steeper, taller, and narrower.
On the other hand, once you’re spending a lot of time grouping, the windows where you are actually damaging the mobs, aka Regular time, may actually get a bit shorter.
So: maybe, once Move time hits that “growth spurt”, some of that extra time added needs to come back out of Regular time. I dunno- it’s a real conundrum, to be sure.
Sorry to barf all over the page like that, I know it’s a lot.
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This is very build dependent. You could have clears with very little amount of move time and such with very high, for example:
Yes. You could have such scenario, or even move time going 70:30 vs. regular time (let’s better call this killing time) in an extreme scenario.
The video you provided is actually on the low end of move time (little move time).
Absolute value of move time always increases the longer the GR time. If you mean the relative value then having a parabola is better than it being a fixed value since on shorter clears you usually face bigger density and less incoming damage while on long clears you may have longer RG battles that reduce the move time.
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Yes, it does have low Move Time. Here is why: The moment he enters the game he is engaged. Although the progress doesn’t happen immediately, he is making bigger progress setting up his kill.
The setup of a kill site should not count as move time, it is no different than waiting for a cooldown. He technically used the enemies he walked through and killed them. He is increasing his Potential Progress (coined a new term)
If he passed them by, and didn’t kill them, this would get classed as Move Time.
Trash Hunters accrue Move Time when they skip empty map because they cannot find trash to kill.
Elite Hunters accrue Move Time when they skip empty map and trash to look for the next elite.
Both of these behaviors result in 0 Potential Progress per distance traveled, they have no bearing on the HP scaling.
If he was inefficient, or if the map had low density, you might be able to class that as Move Time, though these traits are reflected in a higher clear time input.
I think the Move Time label should be renamed to Dead Time and redefined as:
Time where the player is not engaged in attacking or herding enemies. Dead Time includes skipping enemies, traveling though hallways, changing floors and waiting for the boss to spawn.
Now I get the whole 17% per tier and damage isn’t technically occurring during setup… that time is fixed, the hp is variable. However… if you drop down 1 tier, you may not need to herd as much trash to win. It is my belief that your herding time too can be reduced by 14.5% in those scenarios and it gets even more extreme when the tiers are reduced to the point when actual play style and decision making changes as it becomes more beneficial to sit and kill the elite rather than herd. (A push turning into a speed run)
The other reason why I am making this point is for the number of floors field, I think this is going to allow the formula to be more versatile for specialists builds like Invoker and Frenzy.
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No it isn’t barf — this is super important to explore all of the scenarios. I think it’d help us to start building out the tool, a few versions with multiple rules/formulas to see what happens with different builds.
Maybe it’ll attract some additional participants, opinions and more data if there was something semi-tangible to fiddle with.
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I mean, that’s fine: I don’t really care what we call these, as long as we have one category of time that we understand does not scale up directly as a result of increased mob HP, and another category that does scale up directly as a result of increased mob HP.
That’s why I’m talking about a parabolic scaling that starts, and mostly finishes, at a fairly narrow range along the time spectrum. I can tell you, pretty much for a fact, that if you dropped Seras’s 146 down to a 145, he would group the mobs in the exact same way. And this would probably hold true down to at least 140. I think the “zone” where you would really start to see a definitive difference in the optimal way for Seras to play it would be, very broadly, between 130 and 140. And, more narrowly, I’d guess between 135 and 140. Below 130 he would definitely not need to do much grouping, and above 140 he would basically always be maximizing grouping.
@Seras#11432 , buddy, please give this a read and let me know if I’m misrepresenting you / mistaken here. I have no interest in “winning” this discussion at the expense of the truth.
So, assuming I’m right about these numbers, most of that extra Move time (or Dead time, or we could call it Strategic time…) would come into play between the 135 and 140 marks, 6-11 GRs below his max clear. And, that makes sense to me. For this build anyway, at that paragon range, that’s kind of where “high speeds” end and “pushing” begins.
Regarding 14.5%… that sounds realistic for some particular 1 tier drop along that parabola, but well above the parabola, or well below it, I think the time savings would be near 0. EG, Seras dropping from GR 100 to GR 99 is no time savings for grouping, because he’s already doing 0 grouping. Dropping from 146 to 145 is the same- he’s still going to do the same amount of grouping (a ton). But for each step down (or up) in that 135-140 range, I think you would indeed see a significant time savings (or time loss).
For the record, I went through the entirety of Seras’s clear video, and logged the various time categories. They are:
Regular/Fight: 332 seconds
Move/Dead: 241 seconds
Conduit: 56 / 60 (overlaps the boss by a couple seconds)
Stricken: 208 seconds
Total: 837 seconds
So, that’s roughly 40% Fight time, 30% Dead time (28.79%, to be exact), 5% Conduit time, 25% Stricken time.
I’ve got no problem at all with extra fields for more info. I’m just saying that, in addiiton to a high-info analysis (video, or strong remembrance by the player), I also really want to provide the best low-info analysis possible.
With video, one can just do what I did with Seras’s clear, and log all the times for each category- no need to estimate based on # of floors. With no info at all, we obviously don’t know the number of floors, and can only base the Dead time on the amount of total time (or, if you want to get super-dupe picky, you can add in checkboxes for individual builds…).
In-between, I guess there’s a point where the player doesn’t have video, but of course knows the total time, and also remembers the number of floors. Maybe in this instance, the formula could take into account both the total time, and the number of floors.
Yeah, Corpse Lance, or Explosion, working around those huge LotD cooldowns. Bazooka Wiz would be another like that. I’ll watch that video and see what % of Move time / Dead time there is.
Edit: 493 seconds of Move / Dead time, 151 seconds Fight time, 54 seconds Conduit time, 151 seconds Stricken time. Roughly 60% of the total time is Dead time. That’s probably close to the maximum that you’re ever likely to see. In this particular clear, the Dead:Fight ratio is about 3.25:1. And, based on the cooldown cycle, the whole build is basically locked into a ratio no lower than 3:1 (30 seconds LotD cooldown followed by 10 seconds LotD uptime). But that also gives you lots of time to make groupings / move forward, where you couldn’t do anything else anyway. So I don’t think the ratio would ever get too much higher than this, either.
I’m glad you feel that way!
On second thought, maybe we should call this “Setup time”? Because “Dead time” makes it sound like that is time spent being dead.
Or peace time.
I like fight time, also could be battle time.
That sounds a bit too… creatively pharmaceutical.
I like Fight time too. I’d suggest Regular → Fight and Move → Setup.
Oh no what have I started… lol
It all sounds very turn based, this is becoming a Tactical RPG.
Fight Time is good.
Okay, fight time is locked.
What about travel time instead of setup time?
We’re on a lovely holiday to Le Gay Paris!
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The problem with setup time I see is that it isn’t immediately obvious what is meant by it.
Move time is okay, but obviously not incorporating every aspect, so someone might ask “What category is when I pull mobs?”.
On the future website that all should be explained no matter what we decide to call these now.
Idle Time, Inaction Time, Non-Fighting Time, Vacation Time (lol), Window Shopping, Attention Deficit Disorder … focus dmkt… Opportunity Time, Exploration Time
Zdps vs dps time (for website referencing).
I mean, if we’re willing to let it be a little longer, we could call it Grouping + Movement time.
Okay, let’s call it setup time here. It will be explained later anyway.
Or we could use MG acronym for movement & grouping.