I would suggest that there are more people who push DH on live era than pushed barbs on the PTR. If this is true, the population bias underestimates the difference in power.
Many have argued that 140 is the top with me. If the top is 144.5 (for arguments sake @ 200%), than @100% the clear is GR 141. That seems really well-balanced to me. If I’m off a rift or two in either direction it is not awful. If things go live @ 200% and the power of this build is at the upper end of estimates, then we have another OP situation potentially.
I Agree if there are more DHs pushing on live then your data becomes more convincing. Especially, if the numbers are substantially higher and if it turns out (but not necessary) you could show they need higher paragon than the barbs clearing 125 on PTR…Then, you got an iron clad case that no one could argue.
Those are the numbers we just don’t know. Like I said you could be on to something. But you need to provide more concrete data. I do not out right reject your proposition. Your data implies there is potential for WW/rend to be an outlier, the problem is…you say your data is proof. Everyone else is saying you need more concrete evidence.
That’s being a lot more reasonable than you usually are
Look that’s the problem, we just don’t know what the upper limit is. We only have speculation. Something also to consider is what do the top pushers of the other classes speculate they could clear given 10.5k paragon and near perfect conditions. Then we can base speculation with speculation. I’d concede 142/3 as a possible max with the multiplier. Point is we just don’t know.
I like where the discussions are going but I want to reiterate that ideas such as balance and fairness need to be taken into consideration with each other. One might say that it is balanced if Barbs can clear 140, because 140 is, give or take a tier or two, the new solo standard. But one should also consider what is fair, and how Barbs have been neglected for a very long time.
In other words, pure data and analytics it’s not going to make players happy. sometimes you have to address how people feel about the class they’re playing, and how their builds feel, and so forth. That kind of thing has to be taken along with the data.
If, for example, monks in the next patch suddenly start clearing 145, you are not going to hear Barbs asking for monk to be nerfed.
Yeah seriously. When have Barbs cared at all about other classes dominating? Barbs always seemed to have this “meh well I will play what I enjoy regardless” attitude. That’s why Barb mains have stuck with the class for the past 5 years. It’s certainly not because they chase power.
The D3 community as a whole just seemed to accept by a secret mandate when some mechanically weird build performed as dps / rgk / trash killer and no one really complained.
I hope Monks get strong solo builds, that Necros get cool solo builds besides Thorns, that Wizards get other stuff to do besides Meteor / Vyrs (maybe a Hydra push build?), and I hope every class gets variety in their solo push builds.
I feel like there’s nothing left to even say. We showed everyone that lamentation with 200% isn’t op. We gave all the data in the world. The only people who still don’t see it are trolls who have nothing better to do than to disagree just for the sake of disagreeing.
Dear Blizzard devs and executives… Other than the few amazing top clears, you may want to consider looking at the bottom of the leaderboards for a fairer comparison. Barbs bottom season gr 101 vs wizard bottom gr 120. I feel bad for their chantodo nerf, but extremely offended at lamentation belt damage multiplier removal for blizzcon ptr. Mind you, even the necro solo gr101 was bottom of the board, but several builds do great damage excluding thorns. Barbarians ripping muscles and bashing skulls, errr… standing around shouting… like drunken idiots. That has been our Barb role in any and all higher gr groups. And sucking on the bottom of the barrel. Mortick’s bracers made how much actual difference? asking for a friend… WISH LIST: actual balance, where any class can be part of the meta, each class with a feasible support, rgk, trash killer and key farmer… 1-4 gr difference between the classes’ abilities to fulfill each role would still provide a META meta, but allow every class to actually play in higher gr and not get booted because of the 1 and 1! and only meta build. I respectfully disagree with “Barbs have been neglected for a very long time” and conclude that “Barbs have been CRAPPED ON for a very long time.”
P.S.: Why would you make a game “maintenance mode” right after releasing and selling a buttload on the Switch??? With D4 is 5-10 years away…? Don’t you guys have phones? --> you could call and hire a small team to finish 3 DLC’s for $$ between now and D4.
P.S.2: This is my first ever post, barb maltreatment and abuse got it out of me!
Of course, that’s a separate yet very important point. Even if it turns out to be OP, who cares. Most everyone who played WW/rend and gave feedback said it was hellafun. We play games for fun do we not? So why not let us have fun…
I get people that want balance but that’s not really a thing in D3. And when you consider D4 is coming we should be moving closer to 150 and not further away.
People don’t play D3 cause it’s the most balanced aRPG out there, they play it because it’s fun and the combat is rewarding. IMO the combat in D3 is better than any of the other RPGs out there. This game is about slaying monsters and having fun.
And when you consider Monk and Barb have been slugging it out at the bottom for such a long time…would it really be soo bad if they were overpowered, not that I’m saying it would be with 200%, and have their day in the sun too?
“Balance” is something common in MOBAs not really aged ARPGs, these guys calling for balance don’t really care about balance either, they believe their class they like to play should be the strongest and they “balance” by nerfing other classes to oblivion.
I could be wrong here, but it almost feels like the Diablo team is scared to have someone beat the content they provided. People are speed running 150’s as a group now, maybe it’s time for a solo 150 clear. Even if every class had a buff this still wouldn’t be something i’d say is “easy” in a season or even non-season. You’d still need high paragon, excellent gear and augmentations. The seasonal buffs generally will just make up for the 4-5k paragon deficit between someone who only plays seasonal and someone who is exclusive to non-season. Saying all that I mean it’s not something majority of the player base will do.
I don’t main any one class so I don’t have a bias to one thing or another, but nerfing anything in D3 now just feels so unsatisfying. I personally want to feel like I’m getting stronger as time goes on, beyond just “Yep, I got my set now I can do Torment 16.”. All I can honestly think to myself is Blizzard, please listen to your fans, they care enough to have done the math and put the pen to paper for you.
Maybe this is all a misunderstanding, but the lack of any response on such a hot topic is concerning. Hopefully it works out for the better.
I’d like all builds for all classes brought to within 2-5 tiers of 140 for solo pushes, but that’s never going to happen with the CG team and their limited staff and resources. I think the best we can hope for is:
1-2 builds per class that are 140+ worthy
The new sets to be one of those
Quite a few of us, including myself and Ulma, have been saying that almost non-stop. I completely agree with you!
If Barb is OP as all get-out, it doesn’t make the game less fun for everyone else, just like Chantodo’s didn’t make the game less fun for Barb. Frankly, we deserve a Season of ridiculous OP glory. So does Monk. Then I’d go Sader, DH, WD, and Necro.
Maybe, but it would be too much power for a single item, and less interesting. I like more interactions between skills, just like what they did with the WotW set. Beside, not only Rend does the bleed effect so it might open ways to other builds, may be LoD, to use the ring as well.
I love your graphical savvy, particularly with tables. And it warms my heart to see some of the stuff in our proposal in here. Care to do one more with our List 2 ideas for Skull of Resonance, etc?
Anyone seriously suggesting Rend get a 5x multiplier has to know that it would make the build OP. 200% is plenty, and if all we get is 150% or 100%, that will still put us in a good spot. Anything lower than 150% starts to really, really hurt the build’s potential.
Unfortunately, buffing WW damage poses a VERY real problem. Skull Grasp would need to be buffed according to our List 2 values, and possibly higher, depending on Lamentation’s multiplier. Even then, it would make the build more reliant on fishing, and much, much more frustrating than the PTR incarnation. It could be done, yes, but it would require a MASSIVE multiplier–something close to 1500-2000% on Skull Grasp to be worthwhile.
