Back when it was hot (and GR 100 was pretty much the cap), Frenzy Thorns did 98, albeit with far more Paragon. Rage’s clear is legit, but indicative only of the incredibly weak power of the build.
An excellent idea. I’m not a fan of the DR falling off when not attacking with Frenzy as it will make the build incredibly fragile when traveling from group to group.
Another way to tackle the problem would be:
While a shout is active, you gain 50% damage reduction.
Problem solved.
Yeah, but that still wouldn’t be of much use against most elites, the RG, and dense groups of mobs. The first can be (somewhat) mitigated by Stricken, but once RGs go CC immune (which will happen fast–remember, we’ll be applying Stun on every hit of Frenzy), we lose all of that damage bonus, or so it seems based on the wording.
On a related note, I don’t think the developers have tested this internally. What I mean is that this proposed play style is going to be a friggin’ chore to play. Assuming we have Charge on the bar (and we will for mobility and to proc BoM), you’ll smash into a group of mobs, hit Terrify, and they’ll scatter. So you’ll charge to hit someone, and you’ll charge again to get someone else, but by then we may be out of charges, and some mobs will have scattered out of aggro range, and anything resembling density will have dispersed into monster confetti.
It’s going to make every map into a garbage cave map.
To avoid zDPS use, they need to limit the bonus to Frenzy attacks or lock the buff to the player who shouted.
I agree (though I think the stun rune of Frenzy only procs on like 1/3 of hits, yes?), but somewhere along the line, there’s a damage number that would actually make this work. I mean, imagine that instead of a one-hundred percent buff, it was a one-billion percent buff… this would certainly let you kill things in an expedient fashion!
Now, I think most of us agree that 100% is too low, and 1,000,000,000% is too high. But somewhere in-between is a number that will actually let this set function as designed, at least to some degree.
Don’t get me wrong: I’d be fine with them just dumping the fear mechanic in favor of something less complicated and frustrating. But if they refuse to change, I’d at least like to come up with a number that will make the set playable. And I do think that a ramp-up mechanic is the most interesting way of doing this.
Toughness with Thorns Frenzy is insanely tanky if you add in BoM ring. People were pushing near 100 without using it. I was able to push further by using BoM and dropping CoE because you can literally stand in anything and not die if you have decent LPH. Obviously this is different than pushing 130+ though…
I don’t know about this new set though… with thorns you can focus on crazy amounts of life and other toughness stats since you don’t have to worry about crit damage, which won’t be the case now. I don’t know, I don’t play that much now but I’m looking forward to it. From recent d3 PTRs I think if it does grossly under perform in the PTR that I have faith it will be buffed up some.
I decided to work on the math for new Bastion + AD. My original numbers were off, but the idea was right. Here is what I did today.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/g2gocqjlsm
‘X’ is AD damage and ‘N’ is number of mobs being hit. Base damage being calculated is 100 as we talked about before.
This shows the bonus damage that is done.
f(x) is how much damage AD does.
g(x) is how much damage the Bastion proc does.
h(x) is how much AD damage the Bastion proc plus initial hit’s AD damage.
i(x) is how much damage everything together does.
Since Bastion’s proc does not have anything special happening, it is just a straight 100% increased damage, no surprise there. This causes the i(x) to not cause a curve.
My original numbers showed a curve, which was not right. However, h(x) shows that Bastion AD goes up faster than normal AD even though the Bastion proc only adds 100% damage.
Feel free to look at the equations and tell me if I have them right.
Assuming you’re rolling with BoM, your toughness should be similar to that of a WhirlRend Barb using the BoM setup, since you’ll get the same 50% mitigation. I agree that the Frenzy toughness buff decaying in 4 seconds is bad, though. With WW you can just keep WW-ing constantly, maintaining your toughness. Here, the buff is basically guaranteed to drop pretty frequently. If the duration for Frenzy stacks was increased from 4 seconds to 10, then maybe that would be good enough.
As for healing, you’ll definitely be getting healing from Simplicity’s Strength… and I think most people are probably going to want a LpH roll somewhere. Combined with Paragon you should have about 20k LpH…
Simplicity gives 4% of your max life per hit. Assuming you’re running with around 600k life, that’s another 24k life, per hit.
It’s super easy to get 6+ attacks per second with this build (that’s not even counting any attack speed in paragon, or stacks of Echoing Fury…) so let’s just go with that: 6 hits per second.
6 * (24000 + 20000) = 264000 life regenerated per second. (This would refill your 600k life bubble in 2.27 seconds). That’s pretty good, but probably not enough to keep you alive in very high density, so you’d definitely have to stick to fighting smaller groups of enemies. With 5 Echoing Fury stacks, you can get down to 6 fpa / 10 hits per second, which would give you 440000 life per second. That’s better, but still not enough for high density. I think WW pretty much refills its bubble at least once per second in density, using either Blood Funnel or BR:StP.
No, sir. Remember that Zodiac Rend has 50% built-in, 50% from Mortick’s, and 80% from Band of Might. This build will be missing 50% DR right out of the gate, and the 50% it does have is conditional on attacking–which will be disrupted by the Fear effect.
Of course, this build can opt for Mortick’s and Wrath on the bar, but now you’re stacking CDR everywhere + diamond in the helm, and if you opt for Endless Walk, you won’t have Flavor with CDR on amulet. Even with Boon, I don’t think you’re maintaining perma-Wrath without fitting in either Crimson’s or the Zodiac ring + a spender (Boulder Toss or Rumble). However you slice it, you’re talking fully optimized rolls on nearly every piece just to survive in a push environment, and that’s before we get to the problems that result from Fear.
As for healing, I think there are going to be issues even with Simplicity’s and 3 Life per Hit rolls. We all know why Bloodfunnel and Swords to Ploughs are so good, and I do think the latter is a good option with this build, but it means sacrificing Bloodshed, and that’s a major damage loss.
I’m just thinking out loud, and I could be wrong, but I think this build is going to struggle on several fronts.
Yeah, you’ll definitely run Mortick’s, and Wrath on the bar. But you’re right, there’s absolutely no reasonable way to maintain 100% uptime, which means you’ll have half the toughness, at least part of the time.
As for healing, I agree: I just wanted to work out the numbers to see where the build was at, exactly. I think the “sweet spot” is probably a figure that refills your life bubble in 1 second, assuming 6 hits per second (so, roughly 100k total life per hit).
Healing is actually not a problem if you use Simplicity’s. I have had times where between it and Vambraces, if I wasnt one shot, I would regen all life in a fraction of a second. Literally, my lifebar was flashing extremely fast.
For me, it has not been life, but damage that has limited me.
But you won’t use Vambraces for pushing. You’ll use Mortick’s.
And how high have you tested the healing? This build is clearly not suitable for speed-farming, so it’s got to be a push build. How is it going to survive in 130+ with the limited healing it can currently accrue?
I know. The one shot part is the important point. Add in the damage issue and one shows a much better return.
This is part of why I think LoN/LoD can out perform the set. I can get Vambraces/Mortics (cube slot), Aquilla, Leoric’s Crown, an elemental damage gloves, BoM, and illusionary boots, PLUS Depth Diggers, and yeah, there are is a way too many supporting legendaries and the set does not do enough to offset the ones you cannot use.
I wont deny being a casual player. I just like making certain things are fun (fear isnt).
I tried pushing this build up to 75. I do not even have 1000 paragon, so for a casual player, it is a pretty good test. I thought I had turned on Morticks from Nemesis, but apparently not. I also swapped from a amethyst in the crown to a diamond.
What I saw can be pretty much what I had said before, damage is what did me in for time. Damage did not for the most part except for some cases I will get into now.
Fear cause me issues since I would random stop attack and so lose all my healing. Also, the mob running through others was incredibly dangerous.
Wasps almost got me killed several times for the exact reason as fear. Succubuses were worse since they hit harder. So all fast or flying mobs are bad.
The one time I got killed by an elite that did not have a fast movement was because they had invulnerability. Even standing in arcane beams wouldnt kill me, but all of the damage and healing I did would stop. The elite and his horde made it very hard to retarget since they all stacked on each other. Wall was almost as bad, but easier to get around.
Oddly, the boss was the easiest, but that was because it was Hamelin and his adds kept EF up and he did not do enough damage.
So yeah, I do not see a reason to take up the new set. LoD and LoN should out perform it in my book as it should have all the same problems.
This change wouldn’t solve the problem, but it would look really cool:
2-Piece Bonus: Double the effectiveness of all Shouts. Feared Enemies take double damage. Frenzy/Sidearm now has a 100% chance to throw a piercing axe at all nearby feared enemies (or whatever range that counteracts them running away).
Or just take away the feared part. Would turn Barbarians into Axe throwing machine guns. >_>;;
I think the math looks right, but I think your conclusion is a little off. You say h(x) “shows that Bastion AD goes up faster than normal AD”, but this is adding together both the AD from the initial Bastion hit and the AD from the spread-out Bastion proc (i.e. h(x) is “Normal AD” + “Bastion AD”). To see how Normal AD and Bastion AD actually compare, you need a function for just the total AD dealt by the Bastion proc, which would be the latter half of your h(x),
((100/n-1) * x/100 * 0.2 * (n-1))(n-1)
And this, I believe, is equal to f(x).
So h(x) is always going to be twice as much as f(x), which makes sense since (assuming Bastion’s works the way we are thinking) you are doubling the amount of “starting damage” that is being echoed as “area damage”.
You are right. I looked at the equations and realized the AD from Bastion procs equation: ((100/n-1) * x/100 * 0.2 * (n-1))(n-1)
can have the n-1 distributed and all that does is make the equation:
100 * x/100 * 0.2 * (n-1)
which is equal to the standard AD equation.
So yes, the Bastion proc assures you will always do double damage when you have more than one enemy. When that is combined with the double hit, it actually increases your damage against multiple enemies to 4X.
AoE wise, that thing is going to be very good. Single target, still good with the double hit, but not quite as much.
Right, that is also one thing we and dev should consider. I also think the current design is a bit weird.
My idea:
I’d like to do the following, as long as there is an feared enemy within 15 yards, “frenzy” dmg is increased by 100%. This effect last for 6s (fill the CC immune gap).
Or Your proposal + “Feared” enemy can’t move. (Just copy code from WD).
Woops, I had a note to answer this one and didnt until now.
Anyways, Warlord is one of those headscratching items. You do get resource from it. However, its proc requires more resource than you get from it. This means that if you are just using bash, you will never get the full benefit.
In one of my moments of silly build insanity, I realized it worked with IK. However, to get the amount of resources needed, and hence, spent, you would need to get something with more rage production ability.
I decided to go with frenzy. Use it to get frenzy stacks, and then bash away until out of rage, rinse repeat.
It does work with IK. 100% uptime on WotB. The problem is swapping as needed. It was way too unpredictable. So, I tried a macro on one PTR. I hold down frenzy, macro randomly hits bash. There was success and it even could do the set dungeon. I dont use macros on live. So, I have never used it on live either.
If all new legendary bonuses supported it, I would say go for the set having the 2 piece cast another equipped primary when you use another. Warlord plus frenzy would make for a good synergy. There would also be the possibility of Dishonored Legacy and Warlord working together. Heck, that would make Dishonored not be so Dishonored.
