Starcraft 2’s Co-op mode has this system.
Commanders level up through to 15, each level being an upgrade
Mastery is capped at 90, works like Paragon but can’t max out all bonuses
Ascension is capped at 1000, mostly about bragging rights and no bonuses
I rest my case because it is clear that my opponent would only ever take one argument - an argument that he knows for definite can’t be made.
In other words - statistics that doesn’t exist.
I am not foolish enough to spend any more time beating my head against a kindergarten-level of defense. Using such logic as he does - he proves my point and discredits himself far better than I ever could.
Um… you brought up game sales figures into a topic about game design and infinite vs finite scaling systems.
It’s not really anyone else’s problem if you can’t produce the numbers you are talking about.
As I said before, the sales figures don’t say anything about which system is more enjoyable or better for the health of the game. 
Diablo 4 could be the highest selling game of all time with infinite scaling, and it won’t mean anything.
D3 broke sales records. And it lost nearly its entire playerbase after that. One of the highest selling games of all time now barely has any activity on streams or fan sites. One of its fansites almost shut down permanently.
Sales =/= Quality
Some of the top grossing games of all time are low-quality mobile games with really poor design.
Sales figures? I can produce them easy. You discard them as “irrelevant” though because they speak against your case.
No, you ask for different kind of numbers. Specifically:
Which OBVIOUSLY no one ever counted and will never count.
Then, out of my entire post proving how little of D3 audience is D2 players based on sales figures - you pull only the sentence that the numbers you ask cannot be provided.
Don’t try to wriggle your way out of the argument hole you dug up for yourself. You don’t care for arguments or logic or data or any such things - you only care for proving yourself right by finding something wrong with my answers. Which in this case - demanding statistics that you full-well KNOW is unattainable, so you are safe in asking that.
And then you use my inability to provide those numbers as proof of falsehood of my statements - which is not the case, by the way. Lack of any data doesn’t prove a statement to be right or wrong. But for you - it does. And you happily discard all other arguments based solely on that.
As I said, your reluctance to have a discussion or answer any other of my claims, you grabbing at straws - speaks more of your conviction and position than I ever could.
Not sales figures.
You said the following:
Orders of magnitude? Why do you make a claim like that if you don’t know the numbers?
You’re just guessing.
And as I already explained three times, your point about sales is not relevant to quality or game design or this topic.
Aax, just stop. You made the claim and can’t provide anything to back it up. Who cares anyway, it has nothing to do with the horrible infinite leveling system.
It’s an educated guess.
Very few people play Diablo 2 to this day. Look anywhere. On Twitch streams, on Youtube, on forums.
Diablo 2 has MINISCULE modern presence in all those regards. That speaks volumes of how many people are interested in it.
Because look at WC3 even. In comparison to Diablo 2 - it still has quite a following. Diablo 2 is still played - that’s true. But it’s FAR from the interest and coverage that Diablo 3 has.
This, in turn, lets you make a - yes - a guess. But an educated one.
That there are far less faithful D2 players than persistent D3 players.
Dude, which part of “sales has nothing to do with quality or the topic we’re discussing” don’t you understand?
Even assuming I believed you and took all your claims at face value – even assuming Diablo 3 sold 20 trillion copies and Diablo 4 sells 100 trillion – it still says nothing about which system is superior.
The quality of a product is not the sole determinant of its sales figures. Plenty of bad products sell well. Plenty of bad media and movies sell well. Plenty of horrible mobile games with horrible design make billions of dollars.
Quality =/= Sales
So, let me get this straight.
You spend half a night trying to prove how much better D2 is compared to D3 in this very thread.
Then when you’ve lost the argument you suddenly want to get back to topic?!
Good luck with your thread, mate. I’m so done with your childishness.
Again, the thing that I am trying to discuss in this thread has nothing to do with the “argument” you think you’ve won.
No one is talking about sales figures. The only person who brought up sales figures is you. Plenty of garbage mobile games with horrible system design will sell more than Diablo 4 ever will and make billions more in profit. Those sales don’t say anything about their quality.
You’re arguing a point no one is making.
This thread is about the flaws of infinite systems in ARPG’s.
Quality is not the sole determinant of sales.
Oh yeah! Well maybe you should take this advice, bub!
Basically, you ain’t to bright.
Also applies to the item tiers. “Ancient legendaries”… words come straight out of Diablo 3. Even if they change something up like they said they’re considering, it still reeks of Diablo 3 from the name alone. “Mythic” items were probably inspired from WoW.
They really need to get itemization right. It should be the first thing they work on.
Just because they have an infinite leveling system does not mean it needs to resemble D3’s infinite system. They can, in fact, control an infinite system.
They mentioned it in their post, but they could add diminishing returns, meaning that scaling is limiting.
There is no reason they need to even include something akin to primary stat (which was the real inflation/power creep issue).
They can cap certain benefits, they can add utility things, they can do all sorts of stuff.
I personally hope they do add an infinite leveling system, balance it out so not too much power comes from it, add diminishing returns and front load a lot of the benefit per stat, etc.
I hope you are right.
They have eyes but don’t use them.
Finite leveling please
I want a mountain with a summit but its gets colder and darker the closer i get to reaching the peak. No summit no tangible achievement for reaching max level like there is in D2.
That said an infinite level system could work in the season game mode as the season is finite in length. Blizzard controls the reset date and rules for next season, letting players climb as high as they can kind of works in that environment.
Infinite systems in normal game mode eventually just lock new players out and destroys team play. Even if its only a few % points its still not attainable due to the fact not matter how much time is invested its not possible to catch-up to veterans…this is a major turn off and is what killed Diablo 3 for me and my friends.
Indeed this is about killing monsters to find loot, not about killing monsters to get XP.
You can’t compare free-to-play earnings directly with premium game’s sales. Just as you can’t compare the userbase of a free and premium game.
Free to play earns a lot primarily thanks to whales, who are ready to spend tens of thousands of dollars monthly on a game. A premium game doesn’t have that advantage.
I find this kind of funny because literally right now D2 LOD on twitch has 1.9k viewers and D3 ROS has 920( I only looked because you brought it up and I was curious) but …
So I am not totally sure where the validity of your statement is coming from especially considering how much incredibly older LOD is.
(Also last time (still in 2019) the LOD ladder reset I got kind of excited to play and it was absolutely booming both on twitch and in the game lol)
I checked.
Right now, which is a minute since you’ve posted your post:
D2:LOD is 225 viewers, 315K followers
D3:ROS is 884 viewers, 1.4M followers